Annual debate

[zimmerstutzen]

PA has a three week flint only season beginning the day after Christmas. Every year this time, the fiends of in-lines start things on the hunting forums about getting the flint only season opened up to in-lines. Well, I did get a bit carried away. I referred to them as "No Hunter Left Behind" guns. Got suspended from the site.

 

[Spikebuck]

You should feel proud!!! :hatsoff:

A suspension was the ultimate compliment to you, and shows the true colors of those that run whatever site that was!

 

[Wes/Tex]

You should feel proud!!! :hatsoff:

Amen! If we don't take a stand there'll be nothing left for us.

 

[tenngun]

Yeah I'm of the opinion that "muzzleloader should not mean inline. Bow should not mean those fiberglass and pully things,cross bow should be a cross bow,not a modern gun married to thosefiberglass and pully things. The original intent of the laws has gotten bypassed.

 

[Wes/Tex]

The original intent of the laws has gotten bypassed.

I was fortunate to get to help with the original work to get a "muzzleloading" season through the legislature, way back when. To be honest, we would have written the whole thing differently if we'd had any idea of where it would lead. The point was to accept the natural disadvantage of a flintlock or cap lock and work to arrange a special opportunity for those willing to do so. There was no thought of what could happen with technologies we didn't even imagine. It's not popular on the many modern muzzleloading sites now, but if it's not wood and steel and designed to duplicate the old style, I don't even consider it to be a real muzzleloader. I don't argue with those who don't agree, it's a farce without end and neither side is ever going to be convinced. Just the way I look at it.

 

[smokepole tc]

Just my two cents on the topic of Pa. flintlocck [primative weapon season] Could you imagine back in the day when you would go hunting for meat for the family and see a spike or four pt. and not being able to shoot because it doesnt have three pts. on one side RIDICULOUS!! Sorry for being a little of topic.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

We fought hard for old style gun seasons, and never realized that a few manufacturers would retro engineer modern tech to sneak into those seasons. I knew about in-lines but never imagined that some one would bother to mass produce them or that hunters would flock to them. (I have an old in-line built in Phila in the 1860's)

At least here in PA, the flint season predated commercial inline production by several years. Folks who bought in-lines did so knowing they were not permitted the three weeks after Christmas. If they wanted to participate in those three weeks, they had the opportunity to buy a qualifying gun, but chose poorly.

 

[FishDFly]

Mixed emotions, in Texas I do not see a need for a M/L season. We have 8 weeks to gun hunt, if you cannot kill a deer in 8 weeks, another 2 weeks is not going to matter.

In Texas 98% of the land is privately held or leased. The land owner or lease manager sets the rules, hunt with what you want to, if it's legal.

In other states where the seasons are very short and there is a lot of competition on public land I can see the need for a M/L season and make it traditional.

 

[Blackbruin]

I was wondering why you weren't interjecting anymore on that site Zimm! It's pretty comical this year! Yes it's pathetic because they feel left out, they invested their hard earned money on plastic and stainless fluted barrels, with a bone collector Waddell signed limited edition online! Give us a break, we need heritage, and reflection upon our roots in pa, hence late flintlock! If I may ask Zimm, is it for long or short term?

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There is no need for a primitive weapons season here either from a herd management point of view. Here Archers get almost 12 weeks. A flinter who uses his gun in the early muzzleloader regular firearms and late flint season can get 6 weeks in. The season here has nothing to do with herd management, It is a low impact season for the purpose of celebrating the PA long rifle and the frontiersmen of colonial PA. Heritage more than anything. We have many late season hunters who relish the peaceful forests in the dead of winter with their flinters. Many even wear their buckskins and moccasins out in the snow. The flintlock traditional hunters accepted the crappiest time of the year with the bitterest temperatures and harshest weather so they would not interfere with the other seasons which are for wildlife management.

I have hunted with my flintlock in gust driven freezing rains and through zero degree blizzards. (Both actually make stalking easy if you know where the deer hunker down)

We gladly took the dregs of the hunting year for our special time. If it is opened to the Guns for Dummies it will become a management concern and be drastically curtailed.

Our season has lasted for almost 40 years. if a person wants to take part in the three week flintlock season why did the dummy buy an in-line?

 

[Davemuzz]

Our season has lasted for almost 40 years. if a person wants to take part in the three week flintlock season why did the dummy buy an in-line?

It always amazes me how you constantly call people names, or look down upon them, yet still remain on boards. And yes, years ago I was on that other board”¦prior to the new ownership. Not a board that prefers open discussion.

And I LOL when you use the words "We fought."

Yeah.

Dave

 

[Loyalist Dave]

WHY don't you guys try an end around approach?

In Maryland they open the deer season up for one last weekend to modern firearms on Jan 10th and 11th..., which is the weekend AFTER Muzzleloader season closes..., now in Maryland we don't have a flint only season, but in PA you could add the same weekend as an "all muzzleloader" weekend to allow the Inline folks another chance, and maybe quiet them down?

LD

 

[zimmerstutzen]

They already have a week in October and the two week regular firearms season, as well as the extended seasons in the suburban Phila and Pittsburgh area. I have actually heard a guy argue that since archery and inlines are both primitive weapons the archery season should be opened to all muzzle loaders. it will never end. I am against any foot in the door.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Davemuzz, what would you call such a person

"if a person wants to take part in the three week flintlock season why did the ______________ buy an in-line?"

What applicable term would adequately describe him or her? The term should clearly reflect the lack of logic and thought put into the purchasing error.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

They already have a week in October and the two week regular firearms season,

Yes and so do you and I, if we use our flinters in those calendar periods right?

I am against any foot in the door.

I don't disagree; you have a valid point, for the very reason for the inlines is, after all, to get "through the door" without using the older looking firearms.

I have actually heard a guy argue that since archery and inlines are both primitive weapons the archery season should be opened to all muzzle loaders.

Ah well then pehaps form a coalition... there are lots of archery hunters out there who disdain firearms, and they surely don't want inlines in the woods with them. (Forget the fact that in many places dove season and squirrel season opens along with bow season and a BANG in the woods is a BANG) So, appeal to them that they are appreciated as a traditional and primitive hunting sport, and "flintlockers" understand their point as we too are a traditional and primitive hunting sport..., and so you and other flintlockers will support them by voting to keep inlines out of archery season... and you expect them to do the same for flintlock season. You might also try to appeal to the folks hunting wtih raptors. Yes perhaps the modern gunners who also like inlines outnumber flintlockers...., but do they outnumber a coalition of archers, flintlockers, and raptor users???

You might even get people to vocally agitate in favor of inlines in archery to get archers attention.

WHAT

When they were trying to ban hunting in Maryland in the 1990's, all of a sudden guys started showing up in the crowds of anti-hunters with signs that read "BAN SPORT FISHING". Photographs of the protestors were then sent to fishing magazines, for the feeling among fishermen who didn't hunt was "Why should I care about anti-hunters?". When it was pointed out that animal rights folks weren't going to stop at banning hunting..., the fishermen got involved too. Anti-hunting laws were soundly rejected to the point that it was useless for them to continue... We haven't had anti-hunting protests for many years here...

Now whether or not the guys with the ban fishing signs were really pro-hunter and pro-fishing guys "planted" among the protestors... I can't confirm or deny....:grin:

So get an association going and make some noise...


Look I live in Maryland but I would join the:

Primitive Hunting Association of Pennsylvania.

LD

 

[Davemuzz]

Davemuzz, what would you call such a person

"if a person wants to take part in the three week flintlock season why did the ______________ buy an in-line?"

What applicable term would adequately describe him or her? The term should clearly reflect the lack of logic and thought put into the purchasing error.

Perhaps I would call that person someone who would like to take a doe in Allegheny County during the ONE MONTH anterless season that begins December 26th and ends on January 25th of 2014.

Because if you read the regulations they state:

DEER & BEAR SEASON ARMS & AMMUNITION: Allegheny County ”” Muzzleloading long guns .44 caliber or larger, bows and arrows, crossbows, manual or semi-automatic shotguns, .410 or larger using slugs.

So, perhaps this individual has a 2B doe tag and wants to down some freezer meat in a limited time span.

But, I, like you can only speculate on his objectives and motives.

Dave

Oh”¦.I suppose I should add this to help you save some reading time:

Antlerless - Allegheny, Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery & Phila- delphia counties: Dec. 26-Jan. 25, 2014
This is a firearms season, and Special Regulations Area restrictions apply. Only bows are permitted in Philadelphia County.

That's from the book as well. Believe it or not there are a lot of hunters that actually do hunt outside of that little dirt plot you own.

 

[Hierophant]

I referred to them as "No Hunter Left Behind" guns. Got suspended from the site.

Hah! Well done Here in MA the "Primitive Season" includes the use of optics and **lines. I'd like them to at least change the name of the season to "muzzleloader".

I plan to hunt PA's flintlock season this year for the first time after a lifetime of hunting in PA...I'll be pretty put out if the change it now!

 

[Spikebuck]

If it is opened to the Guns for Dummies it will become a management concern and be drastically curtailed.

While Minnesota's late muzzleloader season does allow unmentionables, no scopes are allowed unless you have a permit due to vision issues and even then it can only be non-magnifying. So each year we go through the "we want to use scopes" debate, which to me is the only thing that keeps the modern guys from being single shot near high-powered rifles. Besides trying to keep a more traditional, special hunt, the thought is that the numbers of muzzleloader hunters will soar as soon as scopes are allowed and then the hunt does start to become a management "issue" vs not really any impact to the herd. Our DNR kind of validates this by saying "scopes are a social issue and if allowed, we'll manage the herd" meaning...it could impact the length of the season (currently 16 days) or impact # of does taken, etc.

Net, stick to your guns and don't give an inch! The modern guys are saying...well, it's not really a traditional season anymore, so why not let us use scopes? They sneak in bit by bit.

 

[XXX]

When they were trying to ban hunting in Maryland in the 1990's, all of a sudden guys started showing up in the crowds of anti-hunters with signs that read "BAN SPORT FISHING". Photographs of the protestors were then sent to fishing magazines, for the feeling among fishermen who didn't hunt was "Why should I care about anti-hunters?". When it was pointed out that animal rights folks weren't going to stop at banning hunting..., the fishermen got involved too. Anti-hunting laws were soundly rejected to the point that it was useless for them to continue... We haven't had anti-hunting protests for many years here...

Now whether or not the guys with the ban fishing signs were really pro-hunter and pro-fishing guys "planted" among the protestors... I can't confirm or deny....:grin:

LD

1st class example of political warfare. I like the way you think, I'm gonna keep an eye on you. :hatsoff:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I worked for the Committee to Re-elect the President in the 1972 campaign. Learned quite a few things about political tricks both first hand and from the Watergate hearings.



Davemuzz. I asked what you would call a person who wants to take part in the FLINT SEASON and none the less buys an in-line. A person in "Allegory" county isn't taking part in the flint season. Don't change the question by talking about other seasons.