ADVICE on pricing this Traditions Custom Build

[user 59734]

Hi all - for background, I've been building custom stocks (rifles/shotguns) since the early 70's, having apprenticed under the demanding and critical eyes of two of the old masters who drilled into my brain and hands everything they learned during their decades of gun-building at L.C.Smith (the old factory was in my growing up town). My impeccable work since then has routinely sold in the over $5,000 range for new stock builds depending on the level of carving, checkering, inletting precision, complexity, etc.
This Tradition build is my first "entry" into building a muzzleloader - a Traditions Shenandoah. For this build, I pushed the relief carving limits of the available wood on the Traditions stock (not easy), did a lot of re-shaping of the lock sections, and did considerable antiquing on brass and wood finish. This rifle is carved both sides, tom and bottom, butt to muzzle. Clearly, having completed this first muzzleloader build, I fully respect the work that custom muzzleloader craftsmen produce.

That said - I'm completely at a loss for how much a new - unfired custom build of a Traditions kit is worth (yea, I know, a lot less than a custom build of a Kibler kit).
My thought is that this gun should easily fetch $1,800 - $1,900, but maybe it's only worth $500. Or maybe $3,500. Seriously, I know the value of my work in custom large caliber hunting rifles, but the muzzleloader world is completely new to me.

Advice is welcome (and since I have thick skin, don't be afraid to to tell me I wasted a few hundred hours for nothing). Thanks in advance.

 

[64Springer]

I don't think anyone will be able to get past the Traditions aspect of the rifle enough to force themselves to spend 1,800 bucks.

It's still a 450 dollar Spanish rifle stocked in pallet wood.

The carving is very nice, but that's about it.

A Kibler is 1,300 bucks and you get a real stock with it.

 

[BruceHH]

Welcome to the addiction. I might as well be the one to go ahead and tell you this and I mean in no way to be negative towards your work. The basis for your work is severely going to limit the value of the end product. A Traditions gun is a starter gun for the new person trying to see how much they really like this hobby or for someone who is limited on what they can spend. There is nothing wrong with that, but even a simple carving or inlet job on one of these will put the cost above what someone looking for a carved or inletted rifle is willing to pay for. In other words, your work put more value into the rifle than the platform is worth.

I can not put a final value on it because it is not a rifle I think someone is willing to pay for your work. I do hope you do not take this in a wrong way, as we have all made similar efforts that did not pay off. I would also recommend you study some of the finer made rifles for their design and especially the lines and sizes. An example would be the border around the lock plate. A general border on originals would extend only about 1/8" above/below the edge of the top and bottom of the plate. Also, it would follow the contour of the plate and only extend about 1/4" to maybe 3/8" in front of and behind the plate.

 

[azmntman]

So heres my personal comparison. Guy gets his gramps ol Ford Pinto as a first car. POS. Dang. So he gets a hair and puts a $5000.00 stereo in the car. OMG that sound great all his buds say. Time to reappraise the ol Pinto. Is told by the appraiser he has a $450.00 car with a $2500.00 stereo (it depreciated when he put in) and offers him $650.00.

But I wouldnt hesitate to ask $800.00 and see if someone want that degree of decoration on a Pinto...err Traditions. Discaimer....I own and love several Traditions.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

But I wouldnt hesitate to ask $800.00 and see if someone want that degree of decoration on a Pinto...err Traditions. Discaimer....I own and love several Traditions.

I agree with AZ's Ford Fireball comparison. You put some nice wheels on it and a really good paint job.

I would think 800 would be a high end estimate, but I've seen crazier things happen on gun broker. Good luck with your sale.

 

[user 59734]

Welcome to the addiction. I might as well be the one to go ahead and tell you this and I mean in no way to be negative towards your work. The basis for your work is severely going to limit the value of the end product. A Traditions gun is a starter gun for the new person trying to see how much they really like this hobby or for someone who is limited on what they can spend. There is nothing wrong with that, but even a simple carving or inlet job on one of these will put the cost above what someone looking for a carved or inletted rifle is willing to pay for. In other words, your work put more value into the rifle than the platform is worth.

I can not put a final value on it because it is not a rifle I think someone is willing to pay for your work. I do hope you do not take this in a wrong way, as we have all made similar efforts that did not pay off. I would also recommend you study some of the finer made rifles for their design and especially the lines and sizes. An example would be the border around the lock plate. A general border on originals would extend only about 1/8" above/below the edge of the top and bottom of the plate. Also, it would follow the contour of the plate and only extend about 1/4" to maybe 3/8" in front of and behind the plate.

Bruce - your critique is valued highly. Thanks. This (image) would an easy build - and it would be fun. The Traditions Shenandoah is a non-binary gender - it's a poor modern rendition of some designer's concept of marrying a trade gun with a Kentucky ling rifle with some notion of a Spanish Inquisition musket - so I just gave the neutered design some window dressing.

For 50 years, I've built custom rifles following my rule that "form follows function". Hence the quest for the most respected and reliable "functional" components - I'm not sure they will all come as part of any single "kit".

 

[user 59734]

So heres my personal comparison. Guy gets his gramps ol Ford Pinto as a first car. POS. Dang. So he gets a hair and puts a $5000.00 stereo in the car. OMG that sound great all his buds say. Time to reappraise the ol Pinto. Is told by the appraiser he has a $450.00 car with a $2500.00 stereo (it depreciated when he put in) and offers him $650.00.

But I wouldnt hesitate to ask $800.00 and see if someone want that degree of decoration on a Pinto...err Traditions. Discaimer....I own and love several Traditions.

Thanks, AZ man- yep, I knew that before starting to embellish my "pinto", but I needed to get a bead on building a kit. I can say that I've written a small book on the design, machine-inletting and engineering flaws and myriad quality problems that I encountered and corrected - I would NOT build another Traditions (unless Traditions wanted to pay me to do a ground-up quality analysis report). But maybe I'll float that $800 dollar bill tag.

 

[Bushfire]

Beautiful work, but muzzleloaders are a different beast. Especially when you get to Flinters. The quality of the lock and barrel, sights etc. has more to do with the value than the stock.

Having said that, if you got yourself a good quality kit and did the stock yourself I think you'd have a very valuable gun.

Personally, I wouldn't buy that gun even at $800 because of what it is. I would love to see your work on a higher quality piece and I hope it's something you will do.

 

[ArmorerRoy]

If you sold that to someone for 1000+ you better look over your shoulder for the rest of your life.

Buy a kibler kit.

 

[user 59734]

I don't think anyone will be able to get past the Traditions aspect of the rifle enough to force themselves to spend 1,800 bucks.

It's still a 450 dollar Spanish rifle stocked in pallet wood.

The carving is very nice, but that's about it.

A Kibler is 1,300 bucks and you get a real stock with it.

64Springer - I agree (but that pallet wood from Spain carves up nicely)

 

[user 59734]

If you sold that to someone for 1000+ you better look over your shoulder for the rest of your life.

Buy a kibler kit.

ArmorerRoy - Although Kibler is a 100% upgrade, it's still a "kit". Do ANY custom builders start with a kit, or do they separately source the stock blank, lock, trigger group, barrel, etc., and fit them together? It's my understanding that the "kit" element of a build ensures that all the components will fit together (if properly built).

 

[user 59734]

Beautiful work, but muzzleloaders are a different beast. Especially when you get to Flinters. The quality of the lock and barrel, sights etc. has more to do with the value than the stock.

Having said that, if you got yourself a good quality kit and did the stock yourself I think you'd have a very valuable gun.

Personally, I wouldn't buy that gun even at $800 because of what it is. I would love to see your work on a higher quality piece and I hope it's something you will do.

Hi Bushfire - Thanks.

I'm researching which premium "kit" I might use to build a serious custom gun - or whether the better way is to buy separate quality components and a blank, and build from scratch. Then there's the question of whether I would develop my own style as I have for my rifle builds, or whether the value of the build would also depend on it being "period accurate" - which is somewhat of a misnomer since there were as many design variations over the 200 years as there were gun-builders.

 

[nkbj]

Everyone seems to miss out on the reliability of Traditions locks*, the reliability of the wood in their stocks, and the quality of their barrels. Shame on you poos for poo-pooing this man's piece.

*Yeah, my Shenandoah was rebored to .46 bore because the guy that sold it to me on this forum didn't mention that it had been ringed. And yall think scam artists are bad these days!

 

[nit wit]

I don't believe you will ever get your money back for your very nice carving. Traditions are a production rifle no matter how much carving you have. But, someone could fall in love!
Best of luck, it's nice.
Nit Wit

 

[user 59734]

Everyone seems to miss out on the reliability of Traditions locks*, the reliability of the wood in their stocks, and the quality of their barrels. Shame on you poos for poo-pooing this man's piece.

*Yeah, my Shenandoah was rebored to .46 bore because the guy that sold it to me on this forum didn't mention that it had been ringed. And yall think scam artists are bad these days!

nkbj - seriously, I found the Traditions to be an excellent build kit.

But they should have said it's an excellent merit badge project for Boy Scouts. As I said, this was my experiment with a muzzleloader build, and I got more value out of it than the cash I could sell it for.

 

[Brazos John]

and I got more value out of it than the cash I could sell it for.

Make sure you post photos of your next build!
Whether you base it on a quality kit or by individual pieces, I bet it'll will be beautiful!
Best of luck to you!

 

[user 59734]

Make sure you post photos of your next build!
Whether you base it on a quality kit or by individual pieces, I bet it'll will be beautiful!
Best of luck to you!

Brazos John - THANK YOU.

If I build more, I shall document the full build. Muzzleloader building is a new discipline for me, but I will only build more if they will literally rank among the best. That's the only way I built custom rifles for my clients, and that's the only way I will build custom muzzleloaders.

Much of the knowledge I've gained building many, many dozens of premium rifles over 5 decades translate well to muzzleloaders, but there is so much I don't know about pre-1850s firearms.

Nosce te ipsum

 

[BruceHH]

There are many things involved in a custom build that may not stand out readily, so be prepared. I do build custom and can say it has and always will be an uphill climb. If you are going to put a lot of effort into carving, inletting or even wire work - I recommend you build from the ground up. Having said that, the Kibler kit is a great foundation as are the Chambers kits and probably a few others. Most custom builders will not use a kit rifle (Kibler is the exception) because you have to spend a lot of time and effort correcting issues. A custom build is a lot more than putting a barrel, lock and hardware on a piece of wood. It really does take a lot of studying to properly reproduce a rifle from any of the early time periods. Type of wood, type of lock, all the hardware and what is is made from, the barrel, caliber, profile, length and even where the lugs and pins go and much more. I think a decision you need to make is how deep do you want to dive in. If adorning them is your joy, I would go with the high end/quality kits and carve away. If you want to go fully custom, start researching and find a noted builder to give you guidance.

 

[preston cook]

Well you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig

 

[#blackpowderbill]

IMPO having sold, worked on many muzzleloaders and put a few together you aren't gonna get much over 500$ if 500$ .
You may have been better off to find a Thompson Center Hawken in good condition or Great Plains. Then upgraded the lock ,picked up a really nice piece of wood to restock.
But even then with all the work you'd have to put into it ,I don't think you'd ever regain your time vs money.