Accidents and ML'ers

[Col. Batguano]

I was talking with the NRA yesterday about trying to get the BSA (Boy Scout Division) to open up flint locks to Boy Scouts. (Currently they're only allowed in the Venture Scout Division). They told me that the accident incident rate is many times higher in flint locks than it is with percussion guns. Is this true?

The additional sources of an accident (using flint vs. percussion) I can think of are;

1.) Bystander standing “downstream” from the touch hole at discharge, and being hit by hot gas.
2.) Greater propensity to have hang-fires
3.) The use of real black powder having a lower flash point than substitutes, and ease of ignition in the bore from a remaining ember
4.) Loading with a flint engaging a closed frizzen, and a spark igniting some of the powder that can trickle out the touch hole during the loading of the main charge and seating the ball.
5.) A lock blowing off due to the bolster not being seated tightly against the barrel flats, and powder getting behind it (pretty rare).
6.) More powder spillage in the shooting area, and greater likelihood of the open pan flash igniting exposed or uncovered powder in or out of containers

Are there more? Which of these above are the greatest source of accidents? I don't count as additional risk of people doing dumb things that would be dumb with ANY firearm.

Of course, a program is only as safe as the people administering it, and, the vast majority of Scout range leaders have little to no experience with ML'ers, so they sort of have to go (for safety's sake) with the lowest common denominator, which is why they say percussion guns (all forms including the icky ones we don't talk about here) only on the Boy Scout side. And, the median age for Boy Scouts is around 13, so most of their experiences with a ML'er will be their first one ever. Same with the adults sadly enough.

 

[Archer 756]

:youcrazy: who on earth wrote this !

 

[jamesthomas]

Well, I have call :bull: on this, a flintlock is no more accident prone than a percussion. All it takes is the common sense that you should use around all muzzleloaders. I set up a piece of cardboard if I have someone that's on my flash hole side,and I load with the frizzen open an I don't close it till I'm ready to fire. At my range bystanders are always told to stay behind the yellow line thats behind the folks shooting. You should always load your measure with your powderhorn or use premeasured loads, NEVER load your measure using the bottle. An a well tuned flintlock will be as good or better than a percussion at setting off the main charge. Its no more harder to teach someone how to shoot a flintlock than it is a percussion rifle.

 

[Claude Mathis]

They told me that the accident incident rate is many times higher in flint locks than it is with percussion guns. Is this true?

Ask them for their data.

 

[bpd303]

The only accidents I have experienced are cuts by the sharp flint edge. Over the years I've learned to avoid them. I don't think a flintlock is any more prone to accidents than any other tool.

 

[Zonie]

You forgot:

Flying bits of sharp flint dislodged while striking the frizzen flying thru the air and hitting exposed skin/eyes.

Razor sharp flints slicing careless fingers and other body parts that accidentally touch them.

Dangerous items like pointed vent picks poking holes in the anatomy.

Badly burned fingers from lighting the pans priming with a cigarette.

Seriously, the basic reason is ignorance of the care and feeding of a flintlock. Nothing more.

 

[Billnpatti]

One not mentioned is getting an unplanned tattoo. Lest anyone think me a bit too flippant, allow me to explain. My favorite offhand position is with my supporting hand up near the front of the trigger guard and the elbow of my supporting arm tucked into my side. On one occasion, I accidently allowed my left little finger to get into position directly to the outside of the flashpan. When I fired my rifle, the jet of flame from the flashpan burned a small hole in my left little finger and filled it with burned powder leaving a perminant unplanned tattoo. Need I say that it hurt like H-E-double hocky sticks. :redface:

 

[George T.]

Well here is another vote for :bull: ! Over the years I have shot a bunch of matches with and around flint lock rifles and I have never seen a accident caused by anything other that operator stupidity. In fact they were mishaps and minor in nature. Geo. T.

 

[trent/OH]

IIRC, the BSA doesn't allow use of black powder, just substitutes. While I don't like that restriction, I can understand the desire to be able to store and ship propellants instead of explosives at camps and camporees.

Since they are restricted to substitutes, flintlocks are pretty much out of the question anyway.

 

[trent/OH]

IIRC, the BSA doesn't allow use of black powder, just substitutes. While I don't like that restriction, I can understand the desire to be able to store and ship propellants instead of explosives at camps and camporees.

Since they are restricted to substitutes, flintlocks are pretty much out of the question anyway.

My bad! Some research on my part seems to indicate that real Black Powder IS allowed by the BSA.

 

[matt denison]

At the annual BSA rendezvous we use Goex, supplied by the BSA. We are restricted to percussion and when I asked why was told something along the lines of Col's #1. Jets of hot gasses and flying flint shards.

Now, before everyone gets their britches tied in a knot remember this: we're dealing with kids, mindless young boys as younng as 12. Not all of them are as savvy as some others. Herding 12 year old boys is like herding cats. If you can get their attention your 50% there. If you can KEEP their attention you stand a chance of success. The restriction to percussion only may seem like safety overkill to us but to the BSA powers-that-be (who may not know the first thing about ANY firearms) it seems to eliminate or avoid one or two small safety problems.

Personally I think we are extremely lucky that the BSA allows us to teach these kids about black powder arms of any persuasion. Many, many of these kids have never fired a gun in their lives and would never be exposed to firearms (except the negative media version) if it weren't for the BSA and the volunteers who teach them how to safely handle them.

Done preaching :surrender:

 

[2172]

got my tattoo on my right bicep holding a primed frizen closed flinter in ;my right hand I cocked it with my left hand and the flint scraped the closed frizen and I got an unexpected dscharge. the pan priming got my bicep since I was on the firing line and the gun was pointed down range no major injury to anyone I guess the flint was too long and partiall opened the pan hank

 

[Rifleman1776]

That response displays ignorance. It sound like something written by an anti-gunner.
Like anything, the use of a flintlock rifle requires teaching and learning. That is supposed to be one of the goals of the NRA. In that, this response indicates they are failing.

 

[ZUG]

+1 :hatsoff: . I was a cub scout leader, boy scout leader, T-ball coach, little league coach, soccer coach and I have to say that as a leader of kids you have to be on guard 110% of the time or you are doomed :grin: .

 

[ol vern]

What laffindog said +2

 

[swathdiver]

:youcrazy: who on earth wrote this !

Exactly! Those scouts are more likely to get injured from their pocket knife than firing 1000 rounds from a flinter.

Common sense has left the country.

 

[ChrisPer]

What laffindog said +2

+3
I have done parent helping at scouts, and my main shooting fun is taking groups of kids and giving the history lesson, safety and operation and letting them shoot whatever I show.

My flint pistol demands the teacher's readiness to deal with misfires and much higher likelihood of the loaded pistol being waved about as a result. With larger groups (eg more than 4) that means attention taken from the others that is desperately needed to maintain group safety.

 

[pripley]

I have enjoyed reading about the BSA and muzzle loading. I worked ( :hmm: , $15/week) as an archery instructor at a Boy Scout camp for two summers when I was 16 and 17. I worked next door to the rifle range and was under the same supervision as the rifle range. I have to say I got more rifle instruction in the BSA than I did in the Navy (not unexpected). I can understand not attempting to teach muzzle loading at the camps, where the main focus was getting the requirements for a Merit Badge fulfilled in a week with the .22 rifle. I have my stories of what boys can do with bows and arrows under limited supervision :shocked2: , and I think it is practical to avoid muzzle loading at the BSA camps in general. It sounds like the BSA entertains muzzle loading in special circumstances, which is all good. A great deal depends on the adults available to teach and supervise the kids.
Thank-you to all of the adults who have volunteered their talent and time to the kids. :hatsoff:

 

[Black Hand]

Boy Scouts are limited to percussion ignition and 50 caliber or less. IIRC there are no restrictions on using real BP.

As litigious as society is today, I see no problem with the Flintlock restriction. Percussion guns are relatively easier for the novice to use.

From the BSA Rifle Shooting merit badge:
Option C - Muzzleloading Rifle Shooting

-Discuss a brief history of the development of muzzleloading rifles.
-Identify principal parts of percussion and flintlock rifles and discuss how they function.
-Demonstrate and discuss the safe handling rules of muzzleloading rifles.
-Identify the various grades of black powder and their proper use.
-Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
-Discuss proper components of a load.
-Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzleloading rifle.
-Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzleloading rifle on a range, including range procedures.
-Shoot a target with a muzzleloading rifle using the five fundamentals of firing a shot.
-Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzleloading rifle safely. Using these materials, demonstrate how to clean a muzzleloading rifle safely.
-Identify the causes of a muzzleloading rifle's failure to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
-Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzleloading rifle.
Using a muzzleloading rifle of .45 or .50 caliber and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) at 50 feet that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft drink can.
-Center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score:
at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard targets : 7;
at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100-yard targets : 7.

 

[Col. Batguano]

From the 2013 BSA Shooting Sports book;


From page 52.

Muzzleloading rifle. Only recently manufactured (or
assembled from a kit) percussion cap muzzleloading rifles
no greater than .58-caliber are to be used. Flintlock rifles
are not approved for use by Boy Scouts or Varsity Scouts.
All muzzleloading rifles are subject to safety inspection by
the instructor or range officer. Rifles made from kits must be
checked by a qualified gunsmith.

In adding things to the program, they ask 2 fundamental questions;

1.) What are the benefits by adding the element that are not currently encompassed by the existing program?

2.) What additional risks or unintended consequences are being incurred by the addition?

They have a current proposal to add .22 auto-loaders to the BS portion. Benefits; use a different action type commonly used in the field and in certain matches. Non necessitation of breaking position between shots, The kids can shoot more, and more quickly.

Risks; they burn through ammo more quickly. They don't learn to build positions over and over. Shooting scores are usually lower (for newbies) on a shot string than they are with bolt guns. Reason; after each shot you're ready for another, unlike single shot guns, where there is a lot of effort required to get ready to break the next shot. Gun is in battery almost immediately, posing a risk of inadvertent pointing of a loaded gun in a bad direction. Guns are more difficult to see (for range officers) if they are have a closed bolt (or are loaded) or not.

So for those reasons that pretty much cancel each other out, they haven't added autoloaders to the program.

There is an exception to the above rule though; If a Scout is in a competition, or is specifically training for a competition who's COF rules dictate they fire from a magazine, then they can use equipment and a training regimen that is in concert with that.