A Very Basic pouch

[Brokennock]

So, someone here contacted me about my 1st pouch made of pigskin and based on an original Virginia associated "Shot Pouch" owned by Wallace Gussler, that I've read about. He wanted basically the same pouch but with a hemp webbing strap, and, he mentioned a grandson who likes to shoot with him. I have not posted pics of it as I don't feel it belongs to me. So, I made the pouch, then remade the pouch (another story), and finished it before I received the web strap material. So, I decided to make him an extra pouch, one quite a bit simpler but not built to hold the contents so tight. Using a thin burgundy leather, antler button backed by a coconut shell button, and hemp thread. Here is what I came up with,

That's the "stud" type button from another topic.

The thinner precut straps that Tandy sells are not long enough for the length strap the new owner would need, I already had almost a full length one in the wider 1.5" size from matching to the hemp webbing dyed with Eco-Flo "fudge brown," so I dyed a 1.25" strap with Feibings "burgundy" to more closely match the bag as the narrower strap would be the part directly attached to the bag. and came up with a plan to join them. Worked out okay.

I should not have tried to bleed color into the button holes.
Leather is treated with mink oil on the rough side and sno-seal on the finished side and the seams.

Thoughts? Questions?

 

[Pete44ru]

I like the color & the stitching on the strap ends especially :bow: ; but for my druthers, I prefer (as below) a somewhat heart-shaped bag with radiused lower corners for a day bag.

YMMV, of course....

 

[hanshi]

That's a great looking bag and I like it a lot.

 

[Brokennock]

Thanks. Is that 2 piece or 3, with the flap sewn on?

I've thought of trying to make a bag that shape, but I started this for bags for myself, and I have premonitions that whatever I need at the moment will be stuck down in that low point, :haha: .

 

[Brokennock]

Thanks Hanshi, simple is good.

 

[Brokennock]

I wasn't too sure about this leather after I bought it, got it home, and made a small tool & flint wallet out of it. The surface finish is kind of hard and stiff/brittle (?), for lack of a better adjective. It seemed like holes would want to crack at the surface, it the back side seemed fine. Once mink oil was applied it seemed better.
So, after cutting the pattern out and planning where all my seems/lines of stitching would be, I rubbed a little mink oil in along these places, before punching the holes. Once all holes were placed, I applied a thin smear of sno-seal along where the 2 pieces would meet. This worked out great. Once thoroughly oiled and finished this leather is really nice, and I think the color improved.

 

[Pete44ru]

Thanks.

Is that 2 piece or 3, with the flap sewn on?

You're certainly welcome !

FWIW, since I'm basically lazy, and would like to do as little stitching as possible, I make all my bags with the flap integral with the back wall of the bag, adjusting the flap section's length upon how wide (front to back) a bag would needs be covered.

(bag depth depends on single or double pockets, or side gusset width, etc)

 

[Brokennock]

For the record, I obviously saw your bag after I built the bag for our fellow forum member who wanted a hemp strap,,,

 

[Pete44ru]

IMO, your bags carry your signature in their styling - I would respectfully suggest dancing with who brung ya. atriot:

 

[Artificer]

"I should not have tried to bleed color into the button holes."

If you say that because the dye "bled through" onto the back/flesh side, have to say that really doesn't matter at all.

I like this pouch much more than the other one, but that is merely personal preference on my part.

This also leads me to write something I have been meaning to write, but admit I have struggled with how to write it so it is understood.

I have always been interested in making gear and accoutrements as historically accurate as possible and improving things as I have learned more over the years. So my preference is for things that are more historically correct. I readily admit I accept some things that are not as historically accurate and that are beyond my control or pocketbook, though.

I also don't believe we have to find and make perfect "bench copies" of historic items to be correct, as long as things are made with historic materials and procedures as much as practical and possible. This recognizes many things made in the period were handmade and may be very individual or may be very similar, depending on what the item is.

Now that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the craftsmanship in something that is beyond my personal acceptable range of historic accuracy and even things that are not historically accurate.

I am also not trying to impose my personal sense of historic accuracy on someone else. If someone wants to make something that is not historically accurate or less than historically accurate, that is entirely up to them.

OK, I think have most of the Caveats covered.

Please understand these suggestions are mostly made with respect to making your items more historically accurate. If you don't care about that, or don't care about it much, that's fine.

I can certainly understand you wanting to "put your mark" on your work and makers in the period often did just that as a way of advertising. However, they usually marked their items in a place either not normally seen or not easily noticeable. So I might suggest for historic accuracy that you put your stampings that you are using as "your mark" on the back of the bag. I would also be careful to ensure the stampings are something within the period of the pouch/item you are making, though if they are normally hidden from view - it would not matter as much or at all.

I can appreciate the craftsmanship of the one antler button you made to somewhat resemble a period loop button, but as far as I know, there is no such example of such a button in the historic record. So my suggestion is not to use that as a common feature if you want your shot pouches to be historically accurate. The other antler button with the two holes through the face of the button is very nice for the period, though.

It seems you have taken the adjustable strap feature of the Wallace Gusler pouch very much to heart and that's fine, but just realize that may limit the number of people who might want a pouch made that way. Historically, a one piece strap may have been the most common and followed by an adjustable strap with a period correct buckle.

I have a feeling the Wallace Gusler pouch's adjustable strap feature was very uncommon to perhaps "one of a kind," because it doesn't show up in other places in the historic record. I think a single piece strap or an adjustable strap with a buckle is more serviceable, as well. Just something to consider.

One thing I long ago accepted was if you are going to have/use something very unusual in the period, you really need a way to justify it. Personally, I would suggest not using a coconut shell in the construction of a period pouch mainly because it would be so difficult to justify in the period.

Now I very much applaud you for other things you are doing that are common period construction methods and the improvements I see in your pouches. So I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

Now you're cooking! I continue to be impressed with your workmanship at such an early stage of your "development" as a leatherworker.

Following up on your interest in historic details, if you don't already have it you should pick up a copy of Madison Grant's terrific book The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch.

It's cover-to-cover photos of original bags. But in my experience the photos are a little too dark and obscure a lot of detail. If you scan the photos and run them through some basic photo software you can reveal lots that's hidden on the printed page. By fiddling with brightness and contrast, minute details in sewing and construction appear where they were once hidden. One of my favorite references.

 

[Brokennock]

Thanks Gus, I think you said that all very well. I know what you mean about waiting to post something you want to say. I often have to take some time formulating a response to very helpful but long/involved replies.

I doubt I'll use that type of button much more, of at all, as pieces of antler that allow for its construction are rare. That said, would a tiny leather "washer" not much larger in diameter than needed for the 2 button holes, placed between bag and button be okay?

I'd like to have the historical accuracy of my work improve along with the craftsmanship.

I like the button attachment thing for a couple reasons. While I agree most likely uncommon, if not one of a kind, it is documentable. It also is less stitching and easily replaced/repaired. Period correct buckles are a special order thing it would seem, and I'm in no position to make them, and I often see the modern buckle criticized on people's bags. I hope to scrounge some second hand stores and cheaper "antique" shops for buttons and buckles at some point.
I wouldn't use the coconut button as a primary, just as that inner support button. They look nice, but not eye catching, don't stand out as being something other than wood unless closely inspected, and, coconut materials were not unheard of. I seem to recall that the fibers were used quite a bit as packing material.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Brokennock]

Thanks BrownBear. Grant's book is on my list.

Still unsure how far I'll take this. Making bags for others wasn't much of a serious thought in my mind until contacted by someone to do so. Mostly I'd like to be able to provide adequately for my own needs. I am wondering now if I can't use them to provide for my needs regarding things I just can't make for myself.

Thanks for all your help. Sorry if I seem a little dense sometimes.

 

[BrownBear]

Mostly I'd like to be able to provide adequately for my own needs.

There ya go. But of course, every single gun you own will need at least one bag of its own! :grin:

Seriously, that's what I do. It's sure a lot easier to get into the field with all you need for a particular gun when it has its own dedicated bag.

Too easy for me to forget something. Ask me about the time I got into the field with my 62 cal rifle and made a bum shot on a deer. And discovered I didn't have any patches in the bag! :shocked2: Next ask me how many layers of t-shirt it takes to add up to the .018" thickness of ticking! :rotf:

 

[Artificer]

That said, would a tiny leather "washer" not much larger in diameter than needed for the 2 button holes, placed between bag and button be okay?

Yes, absolutely. There are all kinds of examples of things where leather washers were used for many things during the period.

Period correct buckles are a special order thing it would seem, and I'm in no position to make them, and I often see the modern buckle criticized on people's bags. I hope to scrounge some second hand stores and cheaper "antique" shops for buttons and buckles at some point.

Yes, Coconut fibers may/were used to pack items that came from the Caribbean. A lot of trade from Europe came to the Colonies by way of there. So an explanation of where you got the coconut shell could be it came in the packing of something from there. You would also want a reason your persona would have been around a place where they unpacked such goods from the Caribbean or if your persona was rich enough to afford something imported from there, then that is an explanation where you got it.

I have been using primarily brass reproduction buckles on shot pouches I've made since the mid 1970's, to be correct for 18th/Early 19th century and depending on the time period and type of pouch. That way I could be sure they would be correct for the period.

In the early years I made pouches, period Repro Iron Buckles were almost unknown or were handmade and I couldn't afford them. Iron buckles may have or were more common on some types of pouches. Of course the problem with Iron Buckles is they are going to rust in use, even if they start off being fire blacked/blued or "japanned," the period term for a black enamel type coating.

More info on buckles in my next post.

Like you and many of us, I began doing leather work to make things for myself and to more easily afford them. I also did AWI and War of 1812 in those years, so that gave me excuses to make more leather goods for the periods and persona's I did. Some folks knew of or saw my work, so that got more orders, though I was never even close to being a full time professional leather worker. I found doing leather work helped me afford other period items I wanted, by sale or trade. It was sort of a way for one hobby to help with and/or help pay for another hobby.

Like Brown Bear, I see things in your work and writings that show me promise in your future work.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

Thoughts?

I keep coming back to your photos because I like your bag.

I can't find a single thing to criticize, but I want to plant a seed for future projects if you get into thinner leathers on straps.

The extra decorative stitching where you join the pieces is cool and I like it a lot. But if you ever get to thinner leathers, all those holes can create a weak spot where leather can tear with a lot of weight or when you stumble while the bag is hung up on a limb or brush.

Related, but not specific to muzzleloading, I made myself a very classy leather "messenger bag" style computer carrying case with too many holes where the strap joined the body, and the strap parted as I jogged through an airport. Pretty darned scary and no small part startling when your computer suddenly hits the concrete! Same for muzzleloading if you ever got to the far side of a brush patch and discovered you were no longer wearing your shooting bag! :shocked2:

 

[Artificer]

Brokennock,

I thought you would appreciate looking at some original buckles. This may help you select period correct reproductions and/or modify some other modern buckles so they would be period correct.

Brass Buckles for Pouch Straps could have come from a number of sources in the 18tt /early 19th centuries. In the first half of the 18th century especially, they could have still been using 17th century buckles and some of them re-purposed from other things including shoe buckles. Harness buckles were used. Old Buckles for narrow belts could have been used. Buckles from worn out or captured musket sling buckles or other military buckles from surplused equipment could have been used, as well as what me would call “utilitarian” buckles.

DAACS Cataloging Manual: Buckles www.daacs.org/wp-content/uploads/buckles.pdf

Plymouth Colony Harness and Shoe Buckles: http://www.plymoutharch.com/taylor-bray-farm-richard-and-ruth-taylor-house-gallery/buckles/

From Colonial Williamsburg:
Governor's Palace Stable Archaeological Report, Block 20 Building 4, Originally entitled: "The Site of the Palace Stables Archaeological Evidence" http://research.history.org/DigitalLibrary/View/index.cfm?doc=ResearchReports\RR1471.xml

Buckles and History at Mahockney [Virginia] https://mahockney.org/2015/01/04/buckles-and-history-at-mahockney/

Some information from the book mentioned in the article above, “Buckles 1250-1800,” by Ross Whitehead (Greenlight Publishing, 1996) Ross went back to school as a mature student and graduated with a first class honours degree in Archeology from Reading University in 1991 and published this book in 1996. The book was published in the UK and a quick google search has not yet shown me a book dealer in the U.S. that stocks it. The Amazon price quote was way too high for me, though it is available from Ebay.

Original Buckles and buttons recovered from 17th/18th century Spanish Shipwrecks http://artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm

Buckles through the Ages by Chris Marshall, (Drawings and Text)
http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ceejays_site/pages/buckletitlepage.htm

Now I will readily admit I don’t have much experience with period Iron buckles other than some found on Military Cartridge Boxes at the end of the period mentioned. I hope others with more experience will chime in.

I found this very interesting from Roy Najecki's site:

“Drop forged iron buckles of 1/8" square stock were made in many sizes and used by the British and Americans on their cartridge boxes and pouches, waistbelts, kettle bags, harness, and other equipment. Photos of several originals can be found in Collector's Encyclopedia pg. 54 #18 and it seems that nearly every Revolutionary War historic site museum will have one or two on display as these buckles are found everywhere.

The buckles were not simply made by wrapping round or square iron stock around a form, which results in rounded corners, and then adding the tongue. The roughly formed buckle was then heated and placed into a die (a square cavity) which was then struck with a drop hammer, forging the iron into the shape of the die which gives the buckles the sharp inside and outside corners."

Now, I am really out of my element when the subject of period Blacksmith made, hand forged Iron Buckles comes up, though of course those buckles were used for straps as well. Hopefully others will have more information.

Gus

 

[SpottedBull]

That's good stuff there Gus!

 

[Artificer]

Thank you for the kind words.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Sorry, forgot to include the following two links that show more original buckles:
http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2012/09/belt-strap-buckles-part-one.html
and http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2012/09/belt-and-strap-buckles-part-two.html

Below are Vendors/Sutlers I have purchased Brass Buckles from over the years and I recommend. One important thing to remember is many of these buckles do not come with tongues installed. It is not terribly difficult to make a tongue from Iron/Steel drill rod or larger diameter Black Iron or Steel Wire in a home work shop, but if you don’t that capability, then it is best to order the buckles with the tongues installed where available. As you can see from the links on original buckles posted above and earlier, many if not most of the tongues were Iron, but Brass was used as well.

Brass Buckles from Najecki: http://www.najecki.com/repro/BucklesBrass.html

Iron Buckles from Najecki: http://www.najecki.com/repro/IronBuckles.html

Buckles from G. Gedney Godwin: http://gggodwin-com.3dcartstores.com/Buckles_c_24.html

Buckles from C & D Jarnagin http://www.jarnaginco.com/18th century buckles1.htm

Gus