loading with choked barrel?

i have a navy 12ga double i use as my primary shot gun cyl. bore. i for sum unknown reason,thought i could do better with a single barrel cva hawkin with screw chokes.so i purchased one and cannot seem to load the gun with the screw chokes removed or not.i was loading 70gr and 1 oz shot. the shot just excapes the barrel and falls,with no power. i have tried several differnt cards and wads.what is my trouble? do i just stick with the navy double and dump the hawken? very frustrated.fish4food.

I suspect the problem may be your ramrod, or specifically the ram rod tip. To load past a choke you need to turn the card wads edgewise to push them below the choke and then you need a rod tip of nearly bore size to flatten them back out. If you are using a normal rifle type rod that just won't happen and the wads will still be on edge when seated and thus cannot seal the bore. If you have a cleaning jag for the bore you can use that for loading as well. The wads need to fit the bore and will be difficult to get past the choke but it can be done and becomes natural with practice. I've never owned a ML shotgun with choke tubes but have owned several with fixed chokes of modified and full and don't recall them being especially difficult to load. Of course that is the beauty of jug chokes, they load as easily as a cylinder bore.

The screw in chokes can be much more difficult to load. The Choke tube end is usually not rounded (this can be fixed fairly easier wit a tapered reamed or a fine file. The place where the barrel laps with the choke tube may have the same problem, and is harder to get at to smooth.

CJ's comment on the ramrod is probably a big part of your problem.

It's easier to get a couple of overshot cards down past the tubes.

Personally, I use the cylinder and mod barrels on the Pedersoli, and avoid the screw-ins like the plague. You can use modern shot cups and improve your range with those guns. I know it's not "authentic," but neither are chokes, much less screw-in chokes. Even jug choking is a little late for the period--although its certainly the best solution I've heard of.

If you are going to shoot and load a screw in choked barrel, you have only two choices in picking wads that will properly seal the bore. A. The Thin, Overshot Cards, and B. felt wads.

You have to turn the wads or cards Sideways to the bore at the muzzle, and bend them enough to slide them down past the choke. The OS card will do this, easily, as will the soft, felt wads( no more than 1/4" thick) You have to use MULTIPLE cards or felt wads to build up the SEAL effect in the bore to keep the gases behind the wads and shot load. You can't do it with ONE, Thick wad, as might be done using a cylinder bore shotgun.

Try using 4 OS cards on top of the powder. Turn the cards alternating 90 degrees, so that the edges of the cards that are bent going through the choke, and then turning to square to the bore in front of your loading rod tip, are protected by the next card. Example: First card, align 12/6 o'clock; second card, align 9/3 o'clock; third card, align 12/6 o'clock. etc.)

Iron Jim Rackham, a member here who came up with a described this technique with pictures, showing his before and after patterns, and even some of the grouse he killed with his fowler, put a ball of harder wax lube between his 3rd and 4th OS cards, so that the lube was flattened and spread out when he seated that last card on the first three, and the powder behind it. On firing the shot, the lube was liquified, and lubed the bore as the cards exited the barrel, softening the fouling in the barrel to make it easy to clean, or simply reload the gun.

Then pour in your load of shot.

Finish by putting two OS cards down on top of the shot, both cards having off-centered holes poked into them with an awl, to allow the air between the shot and the OS cards to escape, to prevent "dieseling" of the OS cards. Why two? Again, to protect those edges, and make sure you have a good seal. This is particularly useful when shooting a DB shotgun, where there can be a chance that a load will shift in the second barrel when the first barrel is fired. 2 OS cards on top of the shot act like lock washers to each other, and have enough friction to prevent the load from moving forward on recoil of the first barrel.

Now, some like to lube a felt Wad, and place it between the OS cards on top of the powder. That is usually a bit less " messy" than handling balls of waxy lube, but not much! :hmm: I like the idea of having an OS card immediately behind the shot, so that the shot is pushed evenly, and all the shot releases evenly as it exits the barrel when fired. I see less stringing when I use OS cards behind the shot, than if I use cushion wads, or soft felt wads.

Roundball has written here about using 2 Ox-Yoke Felt wads, ONE SIZE Larger than his bore diameter( ie. if you shoot a 12 gauge, buy 10 gauge wads; if a 20 gauge, buy 14( if available) or 16 gauge felt wads) to put on top of his powder charges. The lube on the OX-Yoke wads is dry, so that the powder is not going to be fouled with grease/oil, during a hunting situation. This would be a quick and easy way to seat a load through a choked barrel, IMHO. By comparison, Iron Jim Rackham's technique allows you to carry ONLY ONE "wad", that is, OS Cards, each with a off-center hole punched into them at home before your hunt.

I go Jim's technique one better, IMO, of course, by simply using a greased cleaning patch I carry to the field, to lube the bore after seating the 2 OS cards on the shot load. In fact, I start the cards down the barrel, and then put the greased patch on the muzzle, and run the 2 cards down the barrel in front of the lubed patch, so that I grease the barrel as I seat those 2 cards on the shot. This saves steps in the field. I found that greasing the bore reduces if not eliminates leading of the bore by the shot as it exits the barrel when fired. It also protects the bore from rusting in the field, and seems to increase the number of shot I get in my patterns by reducing the flats that are rubbed into the shot pellets that are on the outside of the shot load. Putting the lube behind the shot charge, as Jim does, will not help either reduce shot deformation, nor stop leading of the bore.

So, :thumbsup: give these ideas your own testing, and let us all know what works best for you.

You might experiment a little with the over shot cards. I only load two over the powder and it seems to work really well. Perhaps 4 would work better, or perhaps it's a waste of cards. Pattern it both ways. I have full chokes for both barrels for some game and load through them easily with this process.

Dan

The number of O/S-type cards used over powder may depend on bore condition as well as how snug the card fit is. My unchoked 16ga has somewhat rough bores and I need at least 3 of the nominally .025" O/S cards or similar punched .687-.689" from "22-point pressboard" (.022" quite stiff cardboard), possibly 4 when punched from cereal boxes, or 5-6 from milk cartons. With the rough bores, I usually use some sort of paper or card-stock shot protection and burn streaks show clearly on recovered pieces of them when I have blow-by.

Regards,
Joel

DanChamberlain said:

You might experiment a little with the over shot cards. I only load two over the powder and it seems to work really well. Perhaps 4 would work better, or perhaps it's a waste of cards. Pattern it both ways. I have full chokes for both barrels for some game and load through them easily with this process.

Dan

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I have just purchased a pedersoli 12 sxs. Bore exit is .683 (extra full). What is your loading procedure? I have a bag of #6 shot to shoot. Do you use 12 ga cards? Would you do 4 os cards then fiber wad,shot, then how many os cards?
Thank you for your help. Unfired 12 sxs pedersoli from 1985!
My only other experience is with a 13 gauge scott 1863 double. Barrels are wide open on that one.

I suspect your Pedersoli is closer to 13 gauge than 12. 13 gauge wads will probably work better than 12.

Klondyke said:

Would you do 4 os cards then fiber wad,shot,

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I'd skip the fiber wads completely unless loading them last for a Skychief load.
I'd probably try powder, overshot card (or a few), lubed felt or tow wad, shot, overshot card. Or skip the lubed wad altogether and occasionally put a blob of lube in between thin cards as you load them, ie, powder, a couple cards, blob of lube, a couple cards, shot, overshot card. I believe this is how @Britsmoothy loads and he seems to get plenty of pheasants, doves, pigeons, fox, crows, rabbits, squirrels, and so on.
Of you are having trouble with cards tipping due to the choke you could make a little card setting starter like the one in this box of wads and cards,

It's just a button jag with the screw set into a dowel then the dowel shaped for size and comfortable use.
Also, you could skip the cardboard cards and try just felt wads. Maybe try a dry one on your powder if you are concerned about keeping lube off the powder, then a lubed one, then shot, then? Maybe another, or a folded piece of heavy paper. Said paper can also be used directly on the powder separating it from lubed wadding and has historical precedent.

With the exception of the Skychief loading method most (notice I don't say, all) folks seem to find fiber "cushion" wads to be more a problem than a help.

I had a Pedersoli (so-called) 12 ga. double with chokes. Proper loading was impossible. If the wad was small enough to go in it would allow gasses to by-pass the shot load. Hunka junka. One of the happiest days of my life was when I traded it off. Some of those Peds barrels are chrome lined so many gunsmiths will not even attempt to hone them out. Others might try then will cuss you out for bringing it to them.

fish4food said:

i have a navy 12ga double i use as my primary shot gun cyl. bore. i for sum unknown reason,thought i could do better with a single barrel cva hawkin with screw chokes.so i purchased one and cannot seem to load the gun with the screw chokes removed or not.i was loading 70gr and 1 oz shot. the shot just excapes the barrel and falls,with no power. i have tried several differnt cards and wads.what is my trouble? do i just stick with the navy double and dump the hawken? very frustrated.fish4food.

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My Pedersoli 12 ga (screw in chokes )works fine with (DURA FELT WADS ) dry/lubed easy load and no longer mess with cards .I no longer have your problem and squirrels way up there feel safe (their NOT) /Ed