Grains by weight or volume???

[Bob K]

So what I gather from all this (as well as the last multi page thread on this); for my Flintlock I should:
- weigh all my balls EXACTLY the same
- weigh Each charge EXACTLY
- Pression cut & weigh Each patch
- weigh the EXACT AMOUNT of lube on each patch.

Then, and Only Then, I would be getting the most my rifle has to offer...
But, what about the Amount of Pressure used to seat the patch and Ball onto the powder? It would seem that too much or too little pressure would also cause my ball to fly off into Never Land, maybe never even land...
So what kind of Pressure Meters are being used to insure all these other Precise and Careful Measurements are not being tossed out with the bathwater? Or do I just slam my ramrod down the barrel until bounces out into my hand and call it "Done!"???

The method I use to insure consistent loads is to mark my range rod after loading the first shot and all loads following should be very close to that load mark.

 

[user 55620]

To do it properly, you place the butt on a set of bathroom scales to ensure you put the same pressure to compress the load. Once the bullet is correctly placed, a damp patch is used taking care not to touch the bullet. Then you are ready to shoot, if what you intended to shoot is still there.
Myself, I just tap it down a couple of times with the ramrod. It is easy to make muzzle loading a bit of a chore. You are supposed to enjoy shooting.

 

[Brokennock]

It is easy to make muzzle loading a bit of a chore. You are supposed to enjoy shooting.

I agree.
I can see how some people get enjoyment from being extra meticulous and trying to get utmost accuracy performance out of a muzzleloader. This is fine. I get it. And they have every reason to be proud of themselves when they get accuracy achievements way above what is normally expected from a traditional muzzleloader.....
But, when they then expect everyone else to follow suit and talk down to everyone else like we're doing it wrong,,,, we have a problem.

 

[Brokennock]

How many of you started out with something like this?

I'm betting most if not all.

How many have only used something like it? Again, I'm betting a lot.
I'm also figuring something like it is the basis used for the volume of the antler, came, horn, tin, or brass non-adjustable chargers you make.
No scale involved, just using whatever the adjustable measure said was the best volume charge during load development.... And low amd behold, it works,,,, and has worked for a long, long, time.

 

[SwanShot]

So what I gather from all this (as well as the last multi page thread on this); for my Flintlock I should:
- weigh all my balls EXACTLY the same
- weigh Each charge EXACTLY
- Pression cut & weigh Each patch
- weigh the EXACT AMOUNT of lube on each patch.

Then, and Only Then, I would be getting the most my rifle has to offer...
But, what about the Amount of Pressure used to seat the patch and Ball onto the powder? It would seem that too much or too little pressure would also cause my ball to fly off into Never Land, maybe never even land...
So what kind of Pressure Meters are being used to insure all these other Precise and Careful Measurements are not being tossed out with the bathwater? Or do I just slam my ramrod down the barrel until bounces out into my hand and call it "Done!"???

Believe me, they exist, ( pressure gauges) silliest bloody iv;e ever seen.

 

[Mad L]

Believe me, they exist, ( pressure gauges) silliest bloody iv;e ever seen.

I am sure there is, I just noticed nobody had mentioned them.
Trust me, I read Every post I can and take in all I can.
Some I read and take notes,
Some I read and node my head,
Some I read and chuckle,
Some make me wish I could and maybe some day I will,
Others just make me shake my head,
But I enjoy each and every one just as much as I enjoy squeezing the the trigger!

 

[Bob K]

well spit my computer hiccuped.
...a volume that weighs the required amount.
However with Black Gunpowder supposedly with some granulation of some brand of Gunpowder the "grain" weight equals the measured "volume" in theory.
Unless you are shooting a sub MOA muzzle loading rifle find the volume and brand that works and don't worry about the weight.
Sorry about the two layer post but my (expletives omitted) computer sometimes does that.Very annoying
Remember it is not so much how FAST the ball goes
It is WHERE the ball goes.
IMHO
Bunk

This topic intrigues me and I admit I do not understand how volume is the target. I liked shooting Pyrodex and recently started using Goex FF. By volume they are different when measured as grains (weight). So I charted it out and to me the difference is dramatic. UNLESS Goex and Pyrodex at the same volume create the same muzzle velocity. ? .?

 

[Bunk]

This topic intrigues me and I admit I do not understand how volume is the target. I liked shooting Pyrodex and recently started using Goex FF. By volume they are different when measured as grains (weight). So I charted it out and to me the difference is dramatic. UNLESS Goex and Pyrodex at the same volume create the same muzzle velocity. ? .?

A volume of Pyrodex will scale lighter out compared to the same volume of Black Gunpowder. Measure substitutes, such as Pyrodex,777, APP, or any others only by volume. My 1851 Navy uses the same volume of APP as it does real Gunpowder.
Using a caliper measure the depth pf your powder measure set on full scale.
Divide that nulber by the measure setting (eg. a fully open 50 grain measure divide the depth by 50) and that is your ONE GRAIN. Now you can set YOUR measure to a desired setting repeatedly.
I have no idea how much my 17 grain .36 Navy FFFg or APP scales out and really don't care.
I realize this will cause some anal retentive target shooters to have a cat fit, but it works for me.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk

 

[TDM]

Agree completely @Bunk

 

[Bob K]

well spit my computer hiccuped.
...a volume that weighs the required amount.
However with Black Gunpowder supposedly with some granulation of some brand of Gunpowder the "grain" weight equals the measured "volume" in theory.
Unless you are shooting a sub MOA muzzle loading rifle find the volume and brand that works and don't worry about the weight.
Sorry about the two layer post but my (expletives omitted) computer sometimes does that.Very annoying
Remember it is not so much how FAST the ball goes
It is WHERE the ball goes.
IMHO
Bunk

Most tube type volume measuring tools are calibrated for Goex FF, so a volume setting of 70 will get you 70 grains of Goex FF, but only 56 grains of Pyrodex RS. Does this mean both powders create the same muzzle velocity @ the measured 70 grains volume of Goex and Pyrodex?

A volume of Pyrodex will scale lighter out compared to the same volume of Black Gunpowder. Measure substitutes, such as Pyrodex,777, APP, or any others only by volume. My 1851 Navy uses the same volume of APP as it does real Gunpowder.
Using a caliper measure the depth pf your powder measure set on full scale.
Divide that nulber by the measure setting (eg. a fully open 50 grain measure divide the depth by 50) and that is your ONE GRAIN. Now you can set YOUR measure to a desired setting repeatedly.
I have no idea how much my 17 grain .36 Navy FFFg or APP scales out and really don't care.
I realize this will cause some anal retentive target shooters to have a cat fit, but it works for me.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk

thanks Bunk….I think I got it, thanks. My goal is to wean myself off of Pyrodex and use Goex FF. My rifles like 65 grains (volume) of RS for 50 yards using a .49 ball. I’m trying to determine the load using Goex. Worse case is more range time to find it (AOK with me).

 

[1BadDart]

It would be an interesting to see how many competition shooters can shoot (offhand) the difference (if there is any) between weighed versus volume charges. Do a blind test, with one set weighed and the other by volume, the charges done by someone else with the shooter not knowing which charges he's shooting.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

It would be an interesting to see how many competition shooters can shoot (offhand) the difference (if there is any) between weighed versus volume charges. Do a blind test, with one set weighed and the other by volume, the charges done by someone else with the shooter not knowing which charges he's shooting.

International shooters in Europe often weigh their powder charges. There are those in the US who do it as well but they usually keep it to themselves.

 

[TDM]

A volume of Pyrodex will scale lighter out compared to the same volume of Black Gunpowder. Measure substitutes, such as Pyrodex,777, APP, or any others only by volume. My 1851 Navy uses the same volume of APP as it does real Gunpowder.
Using a caliper measure the depth pf your powder measure set on full scale.
Divide that nulber by the measure setting (eg. a fully open 50 grain measure divide the depth by 50) and that is your ONE GRAIN. Now you can set YOUR measure to a desired setting repeatedly.
I have no idea how much my 17 grain .36 Navy FFFg or APP scales out and really don't care.
I realize this will cause some anal retentive target shooters to have a cat fit, but it works for me.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk

thanks Bunk….I think I got it, thanks. My goal is to wean myself off of Pyrodex and use Goex FF. My rifles like 65 grains (volume) of RS for 50 yards using a .49 ball. I’m trying to determine the load using Goex. Worse case is more range time to find it (AOK with me).

If your using 65 grains by volume measure with Pyrodex and switch to Goex 2F or Schuetzen 2F or even Swiss 2F or even switching to 3F, just pickup that same powder measure that you set to 65 grains and fill it to the top. It really is that simple.

Now, are there differences in pressure and velocity between all these different powders filled to the same 65 grain volume? Yes, of course there is. Will you notice that difference shooting at 25, 50, and 75 yard targets? Probably not. For the average shooter it's best not to overthink this. If your a competitive target shooter or want to be a competitive target shooter, then you can get into the business of weighing your loads, recording velocities, and trying to eliminate that extra 1/2" spread in your group.

 

[1BadDart]

Most tube type volume measuring tools are calibrated for Goex FF, so a volume setting of 70 will get you 70 grains of Goex FF, but only 56 grains of Pyrodex RS. Does this mean both powders create the same muzzle velocity @ the measured 70 grains volume of Goex and Pyrodex?

thanks Bunk….I think I got it, thanks. My goal is to wean myself off of Pyrodex and use Goex FF. My rifles like 65 grains (volume) of RS for 50 yards using a .49 ball. I’m trying to determine the load using Goex. Worse case is more range time to find it (AOK with me).

Only testing will tell.

 

[Trooper]

Traditionally black powder is measured by volume.
Measuring by weight is more precise, but bringing a powder scale to the range os a pain, and bringing one hunting seems ridiculous.
While a gram of water will weigh a gram on a scale,,,, black powder is not the same. So far my experience has been that my 3f Goex weighs slightly less than my volume measure reads when the charge is weighed on a scale. A charge from my 65 grain volume measure generally weighs a little under 65 grains when weighed on my powder scale. So, not a huge safety concern, but I would try not to mix up loads listed as by weight with loads listed as by volume.

I’ve found that I can weigh my powder and bottle the weighed powder in a small vial. I can load up 30 or 50 vials for an afternoon of shooting or hunting. A few of these vials can take up space in my possibles bag when hunting.

 

[Redlemur60]

All that iz tru!
Now get a horn,powder measure patch material and a knife.
And do it right!wat iz wrong with yall!

 

[Trooper]

Volume works just fine for me. But you can certainly weight it too. Me, I just don't find it necessary.

All that iz tru!
Now get a horn,powder measure patch material and a knife.
And do it right!wat iz wrong with yall!

I’m after precision. As Idaho Lewis states, “I’m all about squeezing as much accuracy out of my rifle as possible”. His technique of weighing his charge, using an over powder wad and his paper patched I bullet in his stock 1-48 twist TC Hawken is sure an eye opener. If I can recreate his results, then I’ll be truly ready for long range competition. I’m not after minute of pie plate accuracy, I want better than that, much better than that. Watch his videos on YouTube to see his results. He also stated that the only things he changed on his rifles are the rear and front sites. He uses either the Williams FP tang site or the Lyman tang site. heres video of his shooting at a gong at 500 yards as he states, "Pretty doggone cool"

 

[TDM]

Last week while making some fixed powder measures I decided to finally check the accuracy of my adjustable brass powder measures. I have several but grabbed the first 2 I saw. I did a series of test with each. The only deviation between weight and volume that I found was when the powder was poured to the top without any taps on the measure to settle the powder. As long as I filled the measure, then gave several light taps to settle and topped it off again, the weight was equal to the volume mark exactly. And this was for both measures. I was using 3F Goex. I didn't take photos of all the test as the were proving to be redundant. Have several though. The first shows the weight of a 50 gr by volume without settling taps. The other 2 are 50 and 60 gr with settling taps. I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised by the accuracy. I would have been happy with it being within a grain or two.

 

[Bunk]

I’ve found that I can weigh my powder and bottle the weighed powder in a small vial. I can load up 30 or 50 vials for an afternoon of shooting or hunting. A few of these vials can take up space in my possibles bag when hunting.

While loading some paper cartridges with FFg for my Sharps I found the difference between volume and weight was very light varying only a grain or two.
Hold Center
Bunk

 

[david w]

Black powder is measured by weight, but loaded by volume. I tested my adjustable powder measure to see if the volume weight equal the actual weight.