Grains by weight or volume???

[BoomStick]

Swiss, as we have read here a number of times before, tends to be at least 10% more energetic than the best US-made powder, whatever that might be.

There's some occasional discussion of the different energy from different formulations (brands) and granulations -like Swiss has 10% more energy than the equivalent in Goex, or that FFFG has more energy per volume than FFG.
It seems the manufacturer's don't put their powders head-head in testing like that, and most shooters find a preferred powder, develop a load and stick with that...I suppose if a shooter had samples of each, and the equipment and time, we would have some data to review that could give some expected velocities -something like you'd see in a cartridge reloading manual.

 

[Bunk]

Have you ever considered that some people who only shoot muzzleloaders, or that don't reload for cartridge guns,,,,, don't even own a powder scale?! Maybe they only have one of the adjustable volume measures sold as a black powder accessory? Maybe they developed their load using this and then made a dedicated individual measure or charger for that load based on the volume of the adjustable measure?

Of course, this could never really work amn they would be all wrong wouldn't they....

yes I load for both and have never bothered to weigh my Gunpowder loads. The volume that works is what I use.
Remember Gunpowder is very forgiving of the amount of powder loaded.
Smokessomewhatless powders are not forgiving. The loading tables are in grains weight and ignore them at you own risk.
. You can vary a Gunpowder charge by a lot and be safe. With the fad nitro stuff you get a
KABOOM
and a broken gun or worse.
Bunk

 

[Brokennock]

yes I load for both and have never bothered to weigh my Gunpowder loads. The volume that works is what I use.
Remember Gunpowder is very forgiving of the amount of powder loaded.
Smokessomewhatless powders are not forgiving. The loading tables are in grains weight and ignore them at you own risk.
. You can vary a Gunpowder charge by a lot and be safe. With the fad nitro stuff you get a
KABOOM
and a broken gun or worse.
Bunk

Yes, I understand. I load for pistol and cartridge rifle as well....

But not everyone does.....

 

[Erwan]

I have always loaded my muzzleloader with grains by weight, now I am being told I am doing it wrong it should be grains by volume.
I have never heard of loading by volume but maybe I live to far out in the sticks and am too old!

If you use a dosing machine (LEE, Lyman, RCBS etc) you always weigh a volume: dosing is volumetric with all of them and also with a Bonanza (that this gremlin rest in peace), never by weight of substitutes...
So the best way to do it is to always weigh the substitutes in an equivalent volume of black powder...

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I use a hollowed out horn tip for the flinter. It dispenses 55 and 75gr by volume.
I was using a glass test tube looking volume measure for the pistol.
Then I broke down and bought a 30gr tip for my flask, and it does a accurate job.
I use the same tube I used to use for the pistol to load BP cartridges.
Never have weighted a load.

 

[andy52]

You only THINK you're using modern by weighing. We've been over this before. You set the powder measure by weight using a scale. The powder measure dispenses based on volume. The only way you're going exclusively weight is if you drop a charge and use a trickler to bring it up to weight.

Now in black powder, many just go by volume but they aren't shooting competition.

When I'm working up a test load for any of my modern cartridges I do weigh each one on a scale, once established I use a meter that's accurate to .01 of a grain.

 

[Some_Mook]

"Grain" as a unit of measurement was originally nominally based upon the mass of a single ideal seed of a cereal. If one had a vessel that would be filled with 100 grains of said seed, the vessel would be designated as a 100 grain measure. Scientifically, the unit of 'grain' is determined to weigh 64.79891 milligrams or 1/7000th of a pound.

It is much simpler to think in terms of grains than actual weights in troy weight, avoirdupois, and apothecaries' systems. A scale can be calibrated to display 'grains' but it is a conversion based on actual mass. If you threw a charge of Fg measured by volume and weighed it, then threw a charge of FFFFg fr om the same measurement device and weighed it, the FFFFg charge, by weight, would be heavier than the Fg charge simply due to the fact that the size of granulations of FFFFg is smaller than Fg and the charge would be denser - less air space as the smaller granulations can be fit more tightly to one another.

Using a scale to measure the weight of a charge will give you a true weight by mass of material. Using a volumetric measurement for black powder will get you in the ball park and is an accepted and safe method of measurement for this material provided one does not shake or tamp down the charge within the measurement device to try and get as much powder in as possible.

 

[dave951]

When I'm working up a test load for any of my modern cartridges I do weigh each one on a scale, once established I use a meter that's accurate to .01 of a grain.

Yup, and that meter works on volume. When I'm reloading for my modern precision rifle, each and every charge gets weighed.

 

[TrophyGuy]

This discussion got me to thinking about the assertion I read many years ago that it is impossible to overload a muzzleloading firearm with black powder. The slow burn rate of black gunpowder will expel un-ignited powder before it can light off and contribute to overpressure. I'm not about to test that theory, but it seems at least plausible. There is a yarn about riflemen in the 1800's shooting over snow with increasing loads to find the load where unburned powder was expelled. Lyman Blackpowder Manual seems a better source.

 

[Vtmountaindeerhunter]

What? people, I am only 39 years old so just a baby on this subject. I have only been shooting ml since about 1999 when I found a unfired tc .56 smooth bore. I have always measured the black stuff goex with the brass powder measure from the general store. I was told to work up a load had the tc owner manual. It never mentioned weight that I can remember. I have enjoyed taking deer, turkey, squirrel, snowshoes and the general sport of muzzleloaders with out a powder scale.

 

[dave951]

What? people, I am only 39 years old so just a baby on this subject. I have only been shooting ml since about 1999 when I found a unfired tc .56 smooth bore. I have always measured the black stuff goex with the brass powder measure from the general store. I was told to work up a load had the tc owner manual. It never mentioned weight that I can remember. I have enjoyed taking deer, turkey, squirrel, snowshoes and the general sport of muzzleloaders with out a powder scale.

Well bless yer heart and pass the grits. If you're serious about competition and getting the most out of your gun, you'd think very differently

 

[Patched]

Geez, find a load by volume that works with your powder of choice…weigh several for an average to get a target weight for that volume….then for the sake of consistency weigh out a range session worth of charges.

Are we really gonna discuss and argue this *Standard Operating Procedure* for 7 more pages?

 

[Ranch 13]

It would be almost impossible to come up with a chart that shows the relative weight by volume of the various powders. Comparing energetics of various brands of powder depends a bunch on doing so by the same kernel size of the powders. For instance regular Goex 2 f is about the same size as Swiss 1 1/2.
If you weigh a series of powder charges thrown from a quality muzzleloader measure filled from a powder horn most times the setting on the measure will be pretty close to the weight. The problem comes from developing a consistant fill of the measure.
Pouring charges using just the volume measure works fine for the majority of muzzleloader shooting, but when it comes down to accurate competition loads in muzzleloader or black powder cartridge each charge will be weighed.

 

[ORBushman]

Of course, this could never really work amd they would be all wrong wouldn't they....

According to my wife, I'm wrong a lot! Why change now?!

 

[Brokennock]

What? people, I am only 39 years old so just a baby on this subject. I have only been shooting ml since about 1999 when I found a unfired tc .56 smooth bore. I have always measured the black stuff goex with the brass powder measure from the general store. I was told to work up a load had the tc owner manual. It never mentioned weight that I can remember. I have enjoyed taking deer, turkey, squirrel, snowshoes and the general sport of muzzleloaders with out a powder scale.

Yup. And you are not alone, and despite what one egomaniac thinks, you are not wrong. With the exception of a lot of competition shooters, the basic volume method you have used is what most people have used,,,,,,,, for centuries.
Also, keep in mind, that even if an ideal load was developed using a powder scale, once one switches to a volume measure used at the shooting line, adjusted to that charge, that consistency goes to heck.
Unless every charge is pre-measured on a scale for a competition the charges will vary slightly (maybe a lot depending on the charger and the person pouring the powder)

What you are doing has historical context, is pretty much the norm, is not wrong or unsafe,,,,,
and most importantly works for what you do.

 

[TDM]

I wonder how much affect humidity has on powder weight?


We haven't beat this horse to death yet.

 

[Brokennock]

I wonder how much affect humidity has on powder weight?


We haven't beat this horse to death yet.

It depends on what form the humidity takes and if it lands on the scale one has brought to the range or deer stand....

 

[Red Owl]

The NRA reloading book has quite a lot of information on this but I'll try to summarize. Different batches of black powder with end up with different specific density and weight. The manufacturer then adds fillers so that the volume of one batch has the same energy as the volume of another batch BUT THESE two volume may have different weights- if that makes sense. You then have Pyrodex and other powders and to make these equivalent to black powder the same thing is done, they add filler so the volume of one batch yields the same energy as another.
In any event, you are supposed to use a volume measure.
The question then becomes, "Isn't weighing each charge more accurate?"
Apparently no. The NMLRA's magazine had a series of articles a few years ago on the top shooters at Friendship- National Champs, etc. and they all used volume measures.
Modern cartridge shooters are split between measuring by weight or volume. The volume proponents argue that if you measure by weight and have the same OAL on a modern cartridge that the air space inside the case could vary. In any event, for our purposes using a volume measure is fine. Always pour the same. I have a measure with a cut off arm.

 

[TDM]

The NRA reloading book has quite a lot of information on this but I'll try to summarize. Different batches of black powder with end up with different specific density and weight. The manufacturer then adds fillers so that the volume of one batch has the same energy as the volume of another batch BUT THESE two volume may have different weights- if that makes sense. You then have Pyrodex and other powders and to make these equivalent to black powder the same thing is done, they add filler so the volume of one batch yields the same energy as another.
In any event, you are supposed to use a volume measure.
The question then becomes, "Isn't weighing each charge more accurate?"
Apparently no. The NMLRA's magazine had a series of articles a few years ago on the top shooters at Friendship- National Champs, etc. and they all used volume measures.
Modern cartridge shooters are split between measuring by weight or volume. The volume proponents argue that if you measure by weight and have the same OAL on a modern cartridge that the air space inside the case could vary. In any event, for our purposes using a volume measure is fine. Always pour the same. I have a measure with a cut off arm.

Well said. And that's the point I was trying to make. When I work up a load with my adjustable measures it doesn't really matter to me whether it's throwing 77 grains by volume or 83 grains by volume when I have it set for 80 grains. Or does it matter to me what the weight is. Once I develop a load I like, I make a fixed powder measure for that volume and use it.

If your jumping between powder brands or substitutes then yes, you'll most likely need to adjust your load.

 

[French Colonial]

I have a three powder scales, one being a RCBS Chargemaster which has measured thousands of BP charges for BPCRS, but I don't take any of them to the range.

For a new ML I use an adjustable volume measure at the range and adjust in 5 grain increments until I find the most accurate load, I will sometimes then go home and weigh the load just for curiosity and then I make a fixed measure using a wood lathe to turn it or hollow out an antler and adjust it until it holds the correct amount of powder.

All that gets written down just in case but then the new measure is attached to a bag dedicated to that particular gun, usually attached with stout string or a leather thong.

If I shot ML benchrest competition I would weigh my charges but shooting flintlocks off hand the small differences in using a volume measure are not significant enough to matter.