Kibler Fowler News - anything???

[Zutt-man]

A sixteen gauge would be incredible! Being a member of the not so illustrious but nevertheless fun "16ga Society", it would force me to break down and get my first Kibler. It's the ballisticly perfect shotgun gauge.

I’m curious about your last sentence. I’m not arguing, just genuinely curious!

 

[Cattywompuss]

I’m curious about your last sentence. I’m not arguing, just genuinely curious!

Howdy! The 16ga can shoot, muzzleloader or self-contained cartridge, a square load. Now, a square load may not be perfect for every gun, but it offers the opportunity to fire a load that is equal in width and length, offering the shortest shot string with the widest bore possible at the most ideal charge of powder wadding and shot.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Explained another way, 16ga is .662 caliber. It takes 16 .662 balls to make a pound. The caliber is equal to an ounce of lead. You may not choose to shoot a 1 ounce load of shot, but if you do with a 16ga, you are mathematically more likely to have a shorter string with a better pattern.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Theoretically such a situation could be replicated with any gauge, but 16ga is the simplest. It doesn't really apply to modern guns anymore be ause of modern components, but I used to shoot a lot of ooooold cartridge 16ga guns where the rule still holds sway. Sixteen ga generally allows for a lighter gun with a similar bird load to 12ga as well, such as an L.C. Smith unmentionable I had that was 16 on a 20ga frame. That thing was like a magic wand.

 

[Kmcmichael]

The 16 gauge was extremely popular prior to WW2. Returning veterans were enamored with the 12 gauge. Later shooters wanting a smaller gauge bypassed it in favor of the 20. I can’t remember the reference but many thought it the perfect gun in the 18th century.

 

[Brokennock]

A sixteen gauge would be incredible! Being a member of the not so illustrious but nevertheless fun "16ga Society", it would force me to break down and get my first Kibler. It's the ballisticly perfect shotgun gauge.

It's funny, in unmentionable cartridge shotguns, 16 gauge is far and away my favorite. Note I don't say modern, my current "go to" side by each was built around 1936.

Yet, I don't own a muzzleloader in this gauge,,,, yet.

 

[megasupermagnum]

None of the rule of thumbs, or theories, or any of the old jargon are true. Maybe some are, but when it comes to the shotgun, they are almost always false. I'm only aware of one that is true "Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead"

The square load is equal volumes powder and shot. I don't know the history of when the idea that a shot column of equal height to bore diameter came to be. It's a idea that needs to be in the trash. It had no use from past documents, and is sure doesn't belong in modern times. Modern testing, such as high speed cameras have shown shot string is not as simple as more shot = longer string. From the research I've done, best book I've read being Shotgunning by Bob Brister, it isn't worth worrying about shot string until you've met a whole bunch of other criteria first. Shot string is what it is, accept it, pattern your gun knowing it is there. The farther you are shooting, the more it matters. I doubt too many have a muzzleloader capable of really long shots where shot string is worth worrying about.

There's nothing special about a 16 gauge. It is what it is. In muzzleloader terms, a lot of people find it to be a great choice in a SXS, not being too large like a 12 or 10 gauge, especially in a flintlock, which is rather wide at the locks. In modern guns, certain guns really shine in 16 gauge. Others do not. But there is no black magic because you bored out the tube to .665". You can shoot more shot at less pressure than a 20 gauge. I'm not sure it will matter, as I'm guessing the Kibler gun will use the same OD barrel for both, making the 20 gauge barrel thicker, and presumably more pressure.

Really the biggest factor here is handling. I'm guessing this gun will have a ridiculously long barrel, like 46". I'll take the lightest barrel, and in this case that is the 16 gauge.

For the record, I'm a 16 gauge fan. I like my modern 16 gauge so much, I used it to shoot my bear this year.

 

[Cattywompuss]

None of the rule of thumbs, or theories, or any of the old jargon are true. Maybe some are, but when it comes to the shotgun, they are almost always false. I'm only aware of one that is true "Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead"

The square load is equal volumes powder and shot. I don't know the history of when the idea that a shot column of equal height to bore diameter came to be. It's a idea that needs to be in the trash. It had no use from past documents, and is sure doesn't belong in modern times. Modern testing, such as high speed cameras have shown shot string is not as simple as more shot = longer string. From the research I've done, best book I've read being Shotgunning by Bob Brister, it isn't worth worrying about shot string until you've met a whole bunch of other criteria first. Shot string is what it is, accept it, pattern your gun knowing it is there. The farther you are shooting, the more it matters. I doubt too many have a muzzleloader capable of really long shots where shot string is worth worrying about.

There's nothing special about a 16 gauge. It is what it is. In muzzleloader terms, a lot of people find it to be a great choice in a SXS, not being too large like a 12 or 10 gauge, especially in a flintlock, which is rather wide at the locks. In modern guns, certain guns really shine in 16 gauge. Others do not. But there is no black magic because you bored out the tube to .665". You can shoot more shot at less pressure than a 20 gauge. I'm not sure it will matter, as I'm guessing the Kibler gun will use the same OD barrel for both, making the 20 gauge barrel thicker, and presumably more pressure.

Really the biggest factor here is handling. I'm guessing this gun will have a ridiculously long barrel, like 44" or 46". I'll take the lightest barrel, and in this case that is the 16 gauge.

For the record, I'm a 16 gauge fan. I like my modern 16 gauge so much, I used it too shoot my bear this year.

No one claimed it was black magic. It's ballistics. And it began with muzzleloading where soft lead shot can be deformed by a stronger load. The wider surface area combined with a moderate charge causes less stringing and fewer fliers.

Bob Brister is a modern shotgun expert and possibly the best wingshooter on earth. But he isn't a muzzleloading shotgunner.

Very few modern guns shine in 16ga because almost none are made due to the NSCA not adopting it as an endorsed gauge. If you mean modern as in pre-1960 then the only one that doesn't shine is the Steven's 311, which while an absolutely reliable tank, is a hog of gun.

 

[megasupermagnum]

Plenty of pre-60 guns aren't great in 16 gauge. Right off the top of my head, the Winchester 1897 was a 16 gauge barrel on the 12 gauge frame. Not bad at all, but the 12 gauge is better. I recently bought a Savage 430 in 12 gauge, which is a phenomenal gun. I don't even like O/U's, but I had to have this one. Right by it was a Savage 420 in 16 gauge. It was a tank. I don't mind the 311's. I owned a 506a (same thing), as well as a Fox B. I actually think they were decent in 16 gauge. The frames may have been 12 gauge size, but the barrels were tapered nicely. They felt pretty good to me, at least for a $300 shotgun. My only gripe is the stock design was so bad I had to add 1/2" to the comb just to see down the barrel, and it still didn't fit that great.

"And it began with muzzleloading where soft lead shot can be deformed by a stronger load. The wider surface area combined with a moderate charge causes less stringing and fewer fliers. "

This is simply not true until we are talking about extremes. If you shoot 1 ounce in a 20 gauge, and 16 gauge, they will have the same length shot string. This has been proven a number of times, by multiple people. Bob Brister is one. If you use soft shot in both, the result will be the same. I know a number of members don't like to talk about it, but choke is a bigger factor in shot string than bore diameter. A full choke will have a shorter shot string than a cylinder bore. Again, we are talking normal stuff here. Along with that, just because a 1 1/4 oz load in a 16 or 20 gauge is longer than the bore diameter does not mean the shot string is longer. Again, tests by Brister, and recently Federal, have shown that small differences have no effect on shot string length. It wasn't until we are talking extremes like 1 7/8 oz 12 gauge loads that shot string length actually increased, and it really wasn't that much. It was the .410, and 28 gauge that were the really poor performers.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Plenty of pre-60 guns aren't great in 16 gauge. Right off the top of my head, the Winchester 1897 was a 16 gauge barrel on the 12 gauge frame. Not bad at all, but the 12 gauge is better. I recently bought a Savage 430 in 12 gauge, which is a phenomenal gun. I don't even like O/U's, but I had to have this one. Right by it was a Savage 420 in 16 gauge. It was a tank. I don't mind the 311's. I owned a 506a (same thing), as well as a Fox B. I actually think they were decent in 16 gauge, my only gripe is the stock design was so bad I had to add 1/2" to the comb just to see down the barrel, and it still didn't fit that great.

"And it began with muzzleloading where soft lead shot can be deformed by a stronger load. The wider surface area combined with a moderate charge causes less stringing and fewer fliers. "

This is simply not true until we are talking about extremes. If you shoot 1 ounce in a 20 gauge, and 16 gauge, they will have the same length shot string. This has been proven a number of times, by multiple people. Bob Brister is one. If you use soft shot in both, the result will be the same. I know a number of members don't like to talk about it, but choke is a bigger factor in shot string than bore diameter. A full choke will have a shorter shot string than a cylinder bore. Again, we are talking normal stuff here. If we were talking about shooting 1 3/4 oz loads or something, then maybe a 16 gauge has an advantage.

Alright, you believe Bob Brister with modern guns and components. I will believe W.W. Greener and his tome on unmodern guns. Either way, I am getting a Kibler 16ga. I had a Steven's 5100 12ga which was the 311 before they cheapened it. Actual walnut wood, attractive case color, and while the action was still stout, it was roundbottom instead of square.

 

[megasupermagnum]

It's too bad the USA doesn't make reasonable priced double guns anymore. Actually Kolar is the only one I'm aware of. Everyone knows about L.C. Smith, but I'm more interested in the lower cost ones. The Savage 311 and variants could be great if you made a stock for them. The Savage 420/430 are fantastic O/U's, as are the Marlin model 90. They are overpriced now, but originally the Ruger Red Label was great.

 

[Cattywompuss]

It's too bad the USA doesn't make reasonable priced double guns anymore. Actually Kolar is the only one I'm aware of. Everyone knows about L.C. Smith, but I'm more interested in the lower cost ones. The Savage 311 and variants could be great if you made a stock for them. The Savage 420/430 are fantastic O/U's, as are the Marlin model 90. They are overpriced now, but originally the Ruger Red Label was great.

Oddly enough I put a straight stock that I preferred on my 5100. It had 26 inch barrels and was pretty handy for a 12g. I think the stock was from Numrich or something. Also disassembled the lock while I was at it. Lemme tell ya, looking back, I would never advise another 24 year old to just take apart even as basic a lock as a Stevens and put it back together. It was fine, but not fun.

 

[Cattywompuss]

It's too bad the USA doesn't make reasonable priced double guns anymore. Actually Kolar is the only one I'm aware of. Everyone knows about L.C. Smith, but I'm more interested in the lower cost ones. The Savage 311 and variants could be great if you made a stock for them. The Savage 420/430 are fantastic O/U's, as are the Marlin model 90. They are overpriced now, but originally the Ruger Red Label was great.

If we aren't too far off subject(we are) I'll tell you about the night I spent on top of two 50 gallon coolers full of the Double Gun Shops inventory for the SCI Epic Game Fair. They were UPSing them back, and left them with me, in cases, in coolers, in an unsecured building, in Georgia. Alone. There were about 20 guns with an insured shipping value of 1.3 million dollars. It was nerve wracking to say the least.

 

[stephenprops1]

I recently acquired a Larry Zornes, Roger's Rangers, 16 gauge, smoothbore, flintlock. I believe that equates to a 66 caliber round ball. The closest ball size I have found is .648. I hope to get a mold so I can cast my own round balls. I have not shot it yet.

 

[megasupermagnum]

Like anything, bore size can vary. I've seen 16 gauges from .662" to .675" bores. Track of the Wolf has .662" balls which should fit. If they work good, you can buy the mold from JT ball moulds. I'm not sure what you would want for a patched ball. maybe the Lee .600"?

 

[stephenprops1]

Howdy! The 16ga can shoot, muzzleloader or self-contained cartridge, a square load. Now, a square load may not be perfect for every gun, but it offers the opportunity to fire a load that is equal in width and length, offering the shortest shot string with the widest bore possible at the most ideal charge of powder wadding and shot.

I have a 16 gauge Roger's Rangers flintlock by Larry Zornes. --- I have always liked that gauge.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I heard months ago that Kibler was working on adding a Fowler Kit, and quite possibly a Mountain or Plains Rifle. Is there any update on this news?

Curious minds want to know…

 

[Bnewberry]

I heard months ago that Kibler was working on adding a Fowler Kit, and quite possibly a Mountain or Plains Rifle. Is there any update on this news?

Curious minds want to know…

I received an email update, they are working on them, the Ridge Runner will be first and they will be a little bit more expensive due to inflation. Current production models are also going to be a bit more expensive.

 

[Cattywompuss]

I received an email update, they are working on them, the Ridge Runner will be first and they will be a little bit more expensive due to inflation. Current production models are also going to be a bit more expensive.

Isn't Woodsrunner the working name of the next model? I am super excited Eric Von Aschwege is involved. His guns are gorgeous. Read it would be Woodsrunner, then Fowler, then Hawken. Probably all out over the next five years.

 

[Bnewberry]

I think you are correct on the name……. or I have Mr. Kibler working on a super secret new rifle project called the Ridge Runner that nobody else knows about!