Zouave carbine

[satx78247]

Frankly, I've never measured an original Remington Contract gun (and likely will not) BUT the "Civil War Cenntennial" commerative" that I own has a barrel that is 27 3/8 inches in length.
To me, that compact/handy size is a carbine.
(I wouldn't disagree if you choose to call it a "short rifle". - I would think that 27 3/8 is too long to call my firearm a "musketoon", which is what a friend at "deer camp" called it.)

Otoh, arguing about what is a "rifle" or "carbine" or "something else" seems of little worth & frankly SILLY to me. = Rather like arguing about "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin".

ADDENDA: Evidently "Jumpshot" thinks that the "Zouaves" are carbines, too.

yours, satx

 

[hawkeye2]

The U.S. Govt. set the standard length of a rifle at 33" (1841 Mississippi, 1855 Rifle & 1863 Remington) and the Confederates also manufactured rifles with the same length barrel. Whitney also supplied his own version of a rifle to state militias with a 33" barrel. The standard length of a rifled musket barrel was 40". It is possible that a civilian seeing a Rifle might refer to it as a carbine and I do agree that your Zouave is too long to be called a musketoon. Remington did manufacture two carbines prior to and during the Civil War. One, the Jenks, probably saw little or no use and the other was of a type we can't mention here. I hope you will believe that I am not trying to be aurgimentative and I was going under the assumption your post was in refference to Civil War era guns rather than reproductions. :v :v

I believe Jumpshot was refering to "reproductions" rather than originals but perhaps we ought to ask him. A Zouave made after the 1950's with a barrel less than 33" would be properly called a carbine but no originals were ever made that way. A "carbine" length Zouave would likely be very handy in the woods and hard hitting, Just the thing for whitetails. Search for J. P. Murray for a carbine version of the Mississippi Rifle.

 

[satx78247]

Fyi, not only is my little Zouave handy in the deer woods but with a "homebrew" Minie of about 530grains, it does a fine job on our TX hogs, which are FAR tougher than any WT.
(To date my heaviest feral hog was a sow that field-dressed at @310 pounds. - She took 2 steps after a hit "in the engine room" & just collapsed.)

yours, satx

 

[Jumpshot]

ADDENDA: Evidently "Jumpshot" thinks that the "Zouaves" are carbines, too.

No, I don't think that, and I never said that.

A Zouave made after the 1950's with a barrel less than 33" would be properly called a carbine

Exactly. Mine is very short, that's why I called it a carbine.

but no originals were ever made that way.

And I'm aware of that, as I already said.

This thread has gotten off-track anyway. I wasn't asking what the various forms of originals were called because what I have is a modern creation that didn't exist back in the day, so those names wouldn't apply. I was just trying to figure out what I have, as it was called when it was imported 50 or 60 years ago. When I said "Zouave carbine", I was referring to the modern imports, not something from 150 years ago. So, to make sure we all understand, when I say "Zouave carbine", I'm referring to modern creations only.

So to get back on the subject... Regarding the differences I mentioned earlier, I was searching for pictures and info about the carbine version. I realized there are differences between what I have and what is commonly referred to as a Zouave carbine. When comparing the pictures, mine looks even shorter than the carbine. At first I assumed mine was a 24" barrel, but I measured it and it's 22" (the bore is 21 1/2"). So my eyes weren't playing tricks on me, it's shorter than the 'carbine' version.

Also, in the pictures I found of the carbine version (like the one I posted from armslist), the barrel bands are farther apart than mine. And the forward band retaining spring on the carbine is much closer to the nose cap than the one on mine.

So it appears mine isn't the carbine version at all, but something even shorter. I can't find any documentation about exactly what they imported during their years in business, so who knows what it is.

I also haven't been able to find any pictures of this variant. Mine is the only example I've seen. Some variant imported in small numbers, perhaps.

But coming up with a particular name for it isn't important, I was just wondering what it is. Being something that appears to be rare and having no import documentation available, I doubt if I'll ever know for sure. What's important is that I like it. I think it's a cool little gun and I hope it turns out to be a decent shooter. I was hoping to get out and shoot it this weekend but I have too much stuff going on. I'll try for next weekend. I have some 577611 Minies I bought from Track a long time ago. They slide down the bore easily, so I'll start with those. I might try some patched balls too just for fun.

 

[satx78247]

Understood.

Should you travel down Texas way, let me know and I'll introduce you to one or more of our rather evil-tempered "Russian" boars.
(We have more hogs on our farm than anybody can take.- They multiply like rabbits & make great BBQ.)

I think you'll find that your Zouave is GREAT for hunting deer, hogs & other critters out to 100M plus.

yours, satx

 

[Wes/Tex]

I think the confusion boils down to who made what, for import to the U.S. The single band version appears to have been made for Navy Arms by Antonio Zoli & Co. while the double banded version was made for Hy Hunter by another maker or by Zoli under a different contract(?). If you can check the proof markings and possibly post pictures we may be able to figure out who the maker was. "Zouave Carbine" is what Navy called the single banded version in their catalog at the time, don't know what Hy Hunter may have designated theirs, but the term fits the 22" barrel they listed. The "Buffalo Hunter" was a more elegant version with a shorter fore end, wedge w/ plate, checkered wrist and non-adjustable sight. It appears they also picked the finer colored lock plates and hammers for the "Buffalo Hunter" as well. Both were good shooters and Val Forgett took a "Buffalo Hunter" to Africa for non-dangerous game.

 

[Jumpshot]

Mine is stamped Antonio Zoli.

I've also seen a reference to a short version of the Zouave called the Zoli Hunter. Maybe that's what it is.

 

[Jumpshot]

There's one currently listed on The Gun Works' website that looks the same as mine. 22" barrel, barrel bands closer together, and the forward band spring farther from the nose cap. But it has an aftermarket rear sight. It's listed as a Zouave Musketoon, but that may simply be because they don't know what else to call it. No maker listed, it's just described as "Italian made." Their price is $126 more than I paid for mine.

 

[Jumpshot]

That's a little better. I tuned the lock, cleaned a few spots of surface rust and built up dirt, a little touch-up bluing here and there, and polished all the brass. The stock could use stripping and refinishing, but I'll leave that for another day.

 

[MattC]

I was curious so I asked my friend "wikipedia" about the term Zouave.

It seems the term originated with the french in north africa. They had units made up of Berber tribesmen, the ZwaZwa (spelling by memory). The commonly known uniform; the big baggy pants, tight jacket, etc, originated in the desert of that region.

Throughout the world, countries generated their own versions, and the tradition came over to North America as well. In fact, there was a national guard unit in Wisconsin, i believe, that continued to wear the distinctive uniform, for ceremonial purposes, untill the turn of the century after the standardization of uniforms on a national level.

I don't know when the term became associated to the rifle, but neat stuff nonetheless.

 

[satx78247]

EXACTLY CORRECT.

A NY Army National Guard Brigade. still owns some original "Fire Zouave" uniforms, from the 19th Century.
(Or at least they did the last time that I visited their AG's Office, as one of the Brigade's AST showed the uniforms to me.)

At that time, reproductions of that uniform were still worn for color guards & evidently by a ceremonial unit "on special occasions".

Interestingly, there are several STATE GUARD or STATE MILITIA units that have "distinctive attire" for ceremonial occasions. - For example The South Carolina Unorganized Militia of Charleston (popularly known as "THE SCUM" & THE SCUM gives new meaning to: "Politically Powerful", in SC.) has both original & reproductions of their "historic gray dress uniforms", that are sometimes worn.

Full disclosure: As long as it existed, I was a "member in good-standing" of the NC State Militia.

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

TO ALL:

Does anyone know who made my "Zouave" carbine/short rifle/musketoon/??? that is marked ONLY with "CIVIL WAR CENNTENNIAL 1861-65" & bears the serial number "1864" on the left side of the barrel???
(The bottom of the barrel has Italian proofs but there is NO visible indication of manufacturer.)

According to the PO son, the father bought the rifle in Richmond, VA in 1961 & "hung it over the mantle". - It was unfired when I bought it.

yours, satx

 

[Jumpshot]

According to the info I dug up on the web, the guns imported by Hy Hunter were made by different manufacturers in Italy and many weren't stamped with the maker's name. Some of them were prone to the bolster blowing off the barrel because it was brazed on. The N-SSA only approved the ones that were made by Zoli because of this. I don't know what's fact and what's not, this is just what I've read (this info comes from various sources, including the N-SSA forum, for what it's worth). And this is only relating to the ones imported by Hy Hunter. I think if yours was imported by them it would have the Hy Hunter stamp on it.

Since mine isn't a repro of any actual original gun and appears to be different than the Zouave 'carbines' and 'musketoons' I've seen, I've decided to simply call it a Zouave shorty. I figure no one knows what the heck it is, so I'll just give it a name that seems to fit. :grin:

 

[Zonie]

The Arizona State Guard still wears their Official Uniform on a daily basis.

Below is a photo of one of our fine Guard members in full dress.

Standing next to him is an old prospector.
:rotf:

 

[satx78247]

THANKS for your input. - There's NO sign that my little "whatever it is???" ever had an importer/retailer's stamp/marking.

I looked at it very carefully with a 6X magnifying glass, when I had it all apart for refinishing that "nausea-producing" light blond (maybe European beech) stock to a deep reddish brown.- I stained it to resemble cherry.

I don't guess that it makes any difference who made it as it shoots great (my "brother of the heart" did a "trigger job" on it, too.) & it's "A KILLER" on feral hogs, "called critters" & WTs out to 100+ meters, so I'll not overly worry about it, as I've fired several pounds of RS Pyrodex through it, behind my "homebrew" Minies, that weigh an average of 535 grains.

THANKS again, satx

 

[Jumpshot]

Just an update on adding the finishing touches. I wasn't happy with the hammer because when a previous owner removed the color from the lock plate, he wasn't careful with it (not bothering to remove the hammer first) and some color was removed from parts of the hammer as a result (mostly the front area forward of the screw). And with surface rust in some areas leaving it with a dull finish after cleaning, it looked kinda trashy so I just decided to strip the hammer and polish it to match the lock plate. Now I'm happy with it.

Before and after:

 

[ChrisLJ]

Very nice, looks much better.

 

[Jumpshot]

Thanks. The lock plate has a couple of scratches that were too deep to buff out, you can't see them in those shots with the light reflection (you can see them in the 'before' shot, above one wing of the eagle). But overall I think it's an improvement.

 

[Wes/Tex]

But overall I think it's an improvement.

No 'thinking' about it, that's a real nice look. :hatsoff:

 

[satx78247]

That's just downright PURTY. - NICE work on "the polishing job".

yours, satx