Zouave carbine

[Jumpshot]

Just a couple of pictures. I got this one today, made by Zoli.

 

[sheba]

Nice little gun, I have a similar custom cavalry carbine in 58cal with a 22inch barrel and it makes an excellent gun for hunting.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Have never seen a "carbine" with two barrel bands. Every one I've encountered has only a single band and much more barrel exposed ahead of the nose cap. Wonder if someone replaced it with a rifle stock cut back and inlet a second barrel band and keeper? Muzzle appears to be original, which makes me think it's the stock that's been changed. Cool little shooter none the less. They were tough to find back when and even more so now.

 

[Jumpshot]

It's original, not modified. They were imported in the 1950s and '60s. The serial number on mine is 513. I did some research before I bought it and the carbine version is not very common, but I found a couple of examples.

This is one that sold on armslist a while back:

 

[bpd303]

Mine was distributed by Navy Arms called the Musketoon. Single barrel band, no makers marks anywhere except the lock Navy Arms Co. .58 rifled and accurate.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Mine was distributed by Navy Arms called the Musketoon. Single barrel band, no makers marks anywhere except the lock Navy Arms Co. .58 rifled and accurate.

This is the one I've always seen, if three counts as "always". Have never seen the double banded version and it's not shown in Navy Arms old catalogs. Pretty neat if they were actually getting two versions from the makers.

 

[rodwha]

Can these barrels be easily removed for cleaning? I greatly enjoy how simple it is to remove the wedge for cleaning on my rifle...

 

[Jumpshot]

Have never seen the double banded version and it's not shown in Navy Arms old catalogs.

They were imported by Hy Hunter Firearms.

Can these barrels be easily removed for cleaning? I greatly enjoy how simple it is to remove the wedge for cleaning on my rifle...

Remove the tang screw and slide off the barrel bands.

 

[Wes/Tex]

They were imported by Hy Hunter Firearms.

O.K., that makes sense. Hy Hunter went their own way on a lot of imports. :thumbsup:

Since there weren't such a thing as 'carbines' with the "Remington Model 1863 Percussion Contract Rifle", which is the official designation for what we now call the "Zouave", it's all kind of bizarre. In fact, the official documents signed between the U.S. ordnance and Remington refer to them as "Harpers Ferry Pattern", which has caused a lot of confusion for historians and collectors. Since they never appear to have ever been issued, it's unknown, still, where the name "Zouave" came from or why it became associated with these rifles.

 

[satx78247]

My "Civil War Cenntennial 1861-1865" .58cal Zouave was made in Italy by some unidentified company & it has 2 bands.
(The "thread counters" hate it but I don't care, as I bought it UNFIRED for a LOW price from an estate sale. - Cleaning a half century of accumulated "crud", from 50 years of hanging over a fireplace in VA, off the little carbine was a PITA.)

Shoots straight & is "A KILLER" on "called critters", WT & feral hogs out to > 100M, with a Minie in front of 70grains of RS Pyrodex.
(Any number of "wee piggies" ended up as BBQ as a result of a hit from "that !@#$%^".)

yours, satx

 

[Jumpshot]

I know there was never a real Zouave carbine, that's just what they're called today.

But anyway, after some more digging and closer examination of the pictures, I found some differences I didn't notice before and now I don't think it's actually a Zouave carbine. I realized the pictures I found online aren't exactly the same as mine and I haven't seen another one like it. I'm not sure what it is now. :idunno:

 

[Poor Private]

May it have been cut down by a previous owner? I also own a 1863 Remington Contract Rifle( I refuse to cal it a Zouve).
The name originatd back in the centennial reenactment time. My understanding is that they couldn't call it a Remington due to being made in Italy and copyright infringement, so they picked the Zouve name for marketing purposes--More colorful.

 

[Jumpshot]

No, it's original. Just some rare variant.

 

[satx78247]

PoorPrivate; All,

The name "Zouave" dates from about 1863-64 because MOST of the troops (both Yankee & Rebel) who were FIRST issued them were privately raised or state "Zouave" units, whose suppliers happily sold firearms to both sides in TWBTS.
(In the North MOST of the Remington carbines never saw active service with federal units.- Otoh, the CSA issued the carbines that they bought, as the South needed new rifles/carbines/handguns.)

Some Remington-made rifles/carbines evidently made their way South likely through the Canary Islands or some unidentified Latin American nation. - I most strongly suspect that Remington was KNOWINGLY selling their firearms to "overseas (CSA) suppliers" as some identical but UNMARKED "Remington carbines" exist.
(2 such "unmarked Remingtons" are in the Confederate Museum in New Orleans.)

After TWBTS, numerous Yankee Zouave units paraded with Remington carbines through Northern cities, so the nickname "Zouave" forever "stuck".
(Otoh, you may call the Zouave carbines anything that you like. - It's called Freedom of Speech.)

NOTE: Many of "the experts" of the "re-enactor subculture" are actually expert in NOTHING. - Beware of trusting what "the experts" & "thread counters" so dogmatically state without requiring them to provide trustworthy/neutral/prime sources for their pronouncements.

just my opinion, satx

 

[Jumpshot]

I've got the lock apart for cleaning and polishing. It was casehardened at the factory, but it looks like a previous owner removed the color from the outside of the lock plate, except where it's hidden by the hammer. The color on the hammer wasn't removed. I guess they thought it looked better that way. Since I've got it apart I'll finish the job on the plate and get it looking nice.

 

[Poor Private]

Please give me the documentation of their use?
My understanding is they were manuf. all of them were then crated and then placed in storage for the duration of the war. And then they were sold as surplus. There is no documentation that any were issued to any troops north or south.

 

[Alden]

Aawww... I may hate hearing it but I don't mind saying that that little thing is so CUTE!

 

[satx78247]

To Poor Private,

FORTY YEARS ago, I would have agreed unhesitatingly with your comment, given that that was then "the accepted opinion" of scholars.

Now, I believe (based largely on remains of Remington contract carbines found at "digs" at Ft Fisher, NC & at Point Lookout, MD), I have come to believe that there were (at least) THREE separate & distinct groups of Remington contact carbines:
1. the group purchased by the federal contracting officers,
(Bought & then stored through the WBTS & later "surplused-off")
2. the group bought "privately" to arm state & "privately-raised" units.
(I think that the carbines carried by guards at Point Lookout Prison Camp were probably either a portion of this group OR just MAY be a FOURTH group of contract carbines.)
AND
3. a group of UNMARKED Remington carbines that were "sold South" through intermediaries.
(The 2 carbines at The Confederate Museum in NOLA have NO markings, except a serial number, but in every other way are Remington Contract guns.)

NOTE: Throughout TWBTS, "commercial agents" on both sides constantly/happily "traded with the enemy".

That's the best information that I can NOW offer. - I would NOT be surprised that more information on "contract carbine" and/or "contracts ordered by the CSA and fulfilled by Remington" may not yet come to light.

yours, satx

 

[hawkeye2]

While I won't dispute your post though I do disagree I would like to point out that the "Zouave" is not a "Remington carbine" as you refer to it but rather it is a rifle. It confirms to the specs for a rifle in length and is actually nearly identical to the 1841 Mississippi rifle in many aspects. To the best of my knowledge there are no CW era muzzleloading carbines with barrels that are near 33" in length.

 

[Poor Private]

While I won't dispute your post though I do disagree I would like to point out that the "Zouave" is not a "Remington carbine" as you refer to it but rather it is a rifle. It confirms to the specs for a rifle in length and is actually nearly identical to the 1841 Mississippi rifle in many aspects. To the best of my knowledge there are no CW era muzzleloading carbines with barrels that are near 33" in length.

:thumbsup: