Will a flintlock stop a bear?

[bigted]

whewww glad i dont live anywhere close to these beasts that are godlike in there treatment of man. oh did that sound snarly...well it should have if it didnt.

the native here kill them every year with 30-30's and 25-35's and rarely shoot more then one shot. they shoot the poor lil bear in the noggin rite where the head attaches to the shoulders. one shot...one dead bear. they shoot these giants while hunting them with theis eyes open and all theis sences alive.

when the big bears are hunting you...just bend over and kiss your most valuable place goodby. these are the largest predatores on earth and they are very good at hunting. it has been said here up a ways that the attack is sudden and violent. truer words were never spoken. they cheat and the attack will never be a thing that you can plan for. if you have a handgun in a holster,,,it will remain there till you are already on the ground and bleeding. believe it that you will not be able to pull it out and ponder your shot. fellas have had their rifles knocked out of their hands before the saftey ever got released. yes sudden and violent.

so gotta make a decission whether you want to be in the woods with the knowledge that you can and possibly are the next planned meal for something that is faster and a better hunter then you are. the thing is here is that if you are hunting them....be coutious and be a hunter that see's all and hears all. make your shot count and never doubt that if you mess up...the terror that you fear is a possibility.

oh yea to the question....of course it will. of proper calibre and proper power and with proper placement ,.,.,.,.dead is dead. do your homework before you go and have a blast. i do every year!

 

[necchi]

Thank you Big Ted! Of this entire thread your responce made about the most absolute sence.
:bow:
Thanks for joining the forum.

 

[KHickam]

Well....everybody start carrying a big knife... :wink:

Swampy - I generally hunt in period dress which means I have at least one and usually two belt knifes with 8-10" blades - I am looking for a good belt pistol with a big bore. I figure if I ever get into this predicament - I am gonna try to shoot it with my long gun. And if I get into a life or death struggle I am gonna try to shoot it with the pistol, and if we are still locked up - I am gonna stab that beast until he kills me, I kill it or it runs away. I have no intention of going down without a fight.

Besides, no one gets out of life - alive anyway and if you are going down you might as well make it memorable. :idunno: :grin:

 

[bkovire]

ever hear of a Grola bear part giz part polar bears? seen the pic of one just wonder if it be real or fake, the post did say,"more a born in the wild that one might think" :idunno:

 

ever hear of a Grola bear part giz part polar bears? seen the pic of one just wonder if it be real or fake, the post did say,"more a born in the wild that one might think" :idunno:

Great! Over 200 posts and we're changing the topic. Now it's "mutant bears, are they real?" :shake:

 

[rabjr]

Well.....I remember taking my girlfriend at the time to see the movie "Prophecy" a long time ago. :haha: It showed mutant bears out there alright. :blah:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079758/

 

[Zoar]

redwing--you asked if I am serious or just being funny. I have posted a number of things; some meant to be serious and some meant to be funny. So I suppose I must ask for you to be a bit more specific about your question. :grin:

As far as packing my 50 cal double rifle, I have it regulated using 535 Grain Woodleigh Round Nosed boolits. Under 78 grains of Reloder 15 powder. They pack about 4800 foot pounds of muzzle energy. That is times two. Two Fast Shots. It is a heck of a lot of power and penetration. I have been doing some field tests on wood and soggy bales of straw. Actually---plywood/soaked bale/plywood board/soaked bale/timber backstop. The woodleighs from this gun go into the backstop from 50 yards and at any angle. My 54 cal round balls get imbedded in the second layer of plywood boards... (I'm using 3/4 inch plywood in all layers).

As far as having my 4 bore blunderbuss with me when I go to BC and bear country, I was kidding about that however, if I had it with me and I was camping in bear country you would be correct if you can assumed that I would have it loaded heavy with lead balls and pellets.

 

[BrownBear]

As far as packing my 50 cal double rifle, I have it regulated using 535 Grain Woodleigh Round Nosed boolits. Under 78 grains of Reloder 15 powder.

I'm really hoping that's a 50 cal cartridge gun you're talking about. If it's a Pedersoli or CVA muzzleloading double, that looks like the perfect formula to restart NASA's man-in-space program. :surrender:

 

[arctichomesteader]

I've shot a Vermont black bear with a .50 muzzleloader (and I had a Walker revolver for backup). But hunting is very different from being attacked. I never needed to test it but I carried a 45-70 levergun when I was in Alaska's bush in case of bear attacks. Would a flintlock work? Sure, there's documented cases of it, but do you want to gamble that the bear will die before it kills you? I wasn't willing to take that gamble with those big grizzlies I saw up in Alaska...

 

[Zoar]

Yes of course. 78 grains of Reloder 15 in Brass. Woodleigh 535 grain round nosed are also copper jacketed. (RE: Cartridge double rifle)

 

[BrownBear]

I recognized that as a cartridge load, and I'm well acquainted with Woodleigh bullets.

Just wondering, and praying you weren't using a cartridge reloading manual to pick loads for your muzzleloader.

 

[Zoar]

Oooh noooooo.

That would be very bad. Indeed.

 

Would a flintlock work? Sure, there's documented cases of it, but do you want to gamble that the bear will die before it kills you?

Good point.

People can cite stories where they killed a Griz with a flintlock, and they can find stories where someone shot a bear and the bear killed the shooter.

It appears that people want to see how many hypothetical and "I heard" stories can be posted here? :rotf:

 

[Robby]

Dang eb, I think the bear just died of old age! :shocked2:
Robby

 

[nkbj]

Don't know if this advertisement made it into the discussion yet but it was fun.
http://www.arctic-north-guides.com/alaska_hunting_news.htm

 

[poordevil]

Now that was a cool story! :thumbsup:

 

[bigted]

ill not polute this thread with a new subject but i WILL start another in this general spot...howz that grab everybody???

 

[Dphar]

Dan just how far is it through the skin and skull into the brain? No way in h--- is a maxi going to turn and miss the brain. I have nothing against big round balls but a 50 isn't big. I have had conicals turn (one time) a slow twist unstable maxi not a 1-48 . If it shoots a good group it prob is spinning good enough not to turn and I said if it holds a group. Larry

I have gotten reports from people in Canada who abandoned the Maxi decades ago for this reason. The found that the 54 RB would kill moose better than the maxi would and eventually finding larger bore RB rifles as the best solution. Unsatisfactory performance by conicals on game being something that can be found in the ML era writings of both James Forsythe and Sir Samuel Baker and probably others.
The maxi is a poor design for hunting, thus the Maxi-hunter was invented. The maxi in a 48" twist is marginally stable and while it will shoot accurately in some guns this does not indicate it will track straight.
Having seen bullets turn radically, 165 gr 30-06 on a moose, 325 gr Hornady 45-70 factory loads from a 22" twist barrel (2 of 3 failed to track straight in deer and should have been well stabilized) for example. All turned 45 degrees within 2" of entry, the 45-70s did not even strike bone but deflected on striking soft tissue.
The maxi, reports have stated, tends to turn into a spitzer on striking game since the front driving band collapses into the front groove reducing the wound channel.

However. Head shots are different. And while I have a high level of distrust of the maxi the head shot is more a question of angles.
It is a forgone conclusion that a bullet as heavy as a Maxi will penetrate a bear skull given the proper angle or striking the eye socket. This is more a matter of where the energy is applied and how acute the angle is in relation to the bone that must be broken. A 22LR will kill large bears with a properly placed head shot. Thus a 50 RB will likely do as well. If the angles are wrong almost anything will skip off and has.

I don't use Maxi-balls on game. One reason is they will often move off the powder (yeah from testing and field reports of a friend in the east). I have shot about a box of them in testing years back. Testing that indicated that a .490 RB would shoot through a deers chest side to side at 200 yards based on comparing penetration of a low velocity load (pistol) that had demonstrated this ability is real life then comparing its penetration to the rifle at various ranges.
I know a rifle launched 50 RB will shoot through deer to at least 150 yards since I have done this. The RB tracks remarkably straight and I have never seen one deflect significantly until it has penetrated 18-20".
Reports from people with experience that I know personally and trust coupled with reports from the writings of the past indicate that conicals and minie balls fired from slow twists deflect as often, if not more often, than they track straight. This carries on to today with some "cartridge" bullets with "modern" designs that do not work so well. So none of these would be a first choice for shooting Gbears. I have a rifle that shoots a ball that is as heavy as a 54 maxi. Shooting a 54 caliber maxi at a large bear would be a large step down in effectiveness compared to this rifle.

And yes I have shot a significant number of game with various bullets from both cartridge single shots in a variety of calibers with black powder and smokeless and a percussion Sharps in 54.
So I have shot quite a few bullet at game with BP as well, but the twist is much faster. I have also shot a few animals with a 45 Blackpowder Express double rifle with a 40" twist (yeah 40") and it showed no deflection though I only shot 4-5 deer with it and one of these a neck shot. It shot fairly well with smooth sided PP bullets to 350 gr or so but was twisted for 270s I believe.
If I had the time I would double ball a small bore RB rifle (50-58) for use on something as sturdily built as a Gbear. After all if a 58 RB (as I recall) rifle so loaded will kill African Rhino I would expect, and history tells us, a 50-54 will do the same thing for North American game.
The Rhino was shot by a man named Charles Wilcox, a stunt man who wrote several hunting articles in the 1969-1971 Muzzle Blasts. The African hunt was detailed in 1969 or 1970 but I cannot find my copy right now. If I find it I will post.
He wrote up a ML boar hunt in May 1971.
Almost forgot a friend shot a cornered, wounded by his client cow elk with a 50 caliber flint pistol I built, 5" barrel IIRC. He said the cow was coming intending to strike him with a front foot or just run him down. He shot her in the forehead and stated that the ball struck and from the entry wound skidded slightly up the "slope" then broke through and stopped the elk. A different impact angle might have just produced a headache ? He was following her after the hunter shot a front leg and unknowingly cornered her at close range on a rimrock and she turned on him.

Dan

 

[rabjr]

I don't use Maxi-balls on game. One reason is they will often move off the powder (yeah from testing and field reports of a friend in the east).

I used to use the 370 gr T/C Maxi-ball years ago in T/C guns a long with friends who did the same. We took a lot of deer up here with them and never had a problem with them coming off the powder. I myself used them out of four different T/C gun types. It was always the guys who bought the cheaper imported guns, some back then had chrome bores that had the problem of the Maxi-ball moving off the powder. I stopped using them because I wasn't totally happy with their performance and knew there was something better out there.

The biggest problem with most of these bullets being used is little to no meplat. :v

 

[Dphar]

I don't use Maxi-balls on game. One reason is they will often move off the powder (yeah from testing and field reports of a friend in the east).

I used to use the 370 gr T/C Maxi-ball years ago in T/C guns a long with friends who did the same. We took a lot of deer up here with them and never had a problem with them coming off the powder. I myself used them out of four different T/C gun types. It was always the guys who bought the cheaper imported guns, some back then had chrome bores that had the problem of the Maxi-ball moving off the powder. I stopped using them because I wasn't totally happy with their performance and knew there was something better out there.

The biggest problem with most of these bullets being used is little to no meplat. :v

Lack of a significant flatpoint can have a serious detrimental effect on effectiveness on game.
I liked my BPCR hunting bullets to have a flat about 1/2 of bore diameter, .200-.220 for a 40 caliber. Though smaller seemed to work OK with PP 45 calibers, but I was shooting animals larger and harder than deer or elk.
The maxi-ball has little to keep it in place. How a person hunts will also have an effect. I learned that in a Douglas barrel used for testing that a fairly minor bump on the muzzle would move the 54 maxi 1-2" off the powder. 1-2" is not likely to burst or even bulge a barrel. But more than this is going to cause a lot of problems.
This was a chronic problem with the musket and rifle musket and was the reason there was never an issue minie ball carbine. Slung carbines would not stay loaded horse back.
Nor would the muskets or rifle muskets stay loaded if slung muzzle down.
Yes the maxi is tighter, but its still a sliding fit in the bore and that on only one band most of the time. So I have "trust issues" and I consider shooting conicals for hunting is far from historical anyway (though there are a (very) few citations) since there is nothing that shows any significant use for this type bullet in America and what is written by the English, at least what I have found, is not very complementary.
The American "conical" for hunting arms was the cloth patched Picket and it has limitations in that it requires extra equipment, a guide starter fitted to the barrel at least, to load so as to get any accuracy from it. While it increased range its increase in killing power, if any, was not enough, IMO, to overcome the weight of the ammunition and starter. As a result bullets did not replace the RB in the field until the wide spread adoption of the breech loader. Or it got little press. See "Wah to Yah and the Taos Trail" by Garrard and "The ML Caplock Rifle" by Roberts. Though a lot of modern picket shooters somewhat question Roberts accounts of using a picket unless he has omitted using the starter.
There is an excellent explanation of the picket by a bullet proponent in "The Improved American Rifle" by Chapman. There is a good explanation of the RB as a superior hunting projectile in "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" by Forsythe. Forsythe and others found that the roundball was superior for heavy Asian and African game. The large diameter round ball or very short bullets of near equal weight in arms like 8 and 4 bore breech loaders were not really displaced for shooting in Africa until the advent of the 450 NE with a 480 grain jacketed bullet at about 2100 fps.
Rifles of 10 bore could shoot a longer bullet than the larger bores and these were also used but not in ML arms. With the coming of the breech loaders Baker started using a 10 bore breech loading rifle and also was credited as the driving force behind the .577 BPE.
This is really too complex for the time I want to spend.
As a final example Baker had a two groove belted ball rifle, these had twists too fast for a cloth patched round ball and used a belt that fit the grooves. It was about a 5 or 6 bore. He stated that it never failed to "floor" a charging elephant. He decided a conical would make it even better and had a mould made. It was a disaster and apparently nearly got him killed and he abandoned it in favor of the ball.
Regardless of what you might read there is very little difference in shooting deer sized animals between a 50-54 RB and a 30-06 or a 45-100 etc etc. They tend to stay on their feet long enough to cover 40 yards, sometimes more sometimes less, with similar hits. As I have stated before I have shot or seen shot a considerable number of animals and shot through the lungs they last about as long shot with a 7mm mag or a round ball of 50-54 caliber. But people have been indoctrinated for decades with the idea that since a RB has such a poor sectional density compared to the long bullets used by modern cartridges it cannot work as a hunting projectile. This should have needed not refutation based on history. But the magazines were getting advertising from the bullet makers and this caused them and their writers to agree wholeheartedly. Its money afterall and it can change all sorts of facts.
Thus in the unfortunate event I should have to shoot a Gbear with my 50 caliber I would be "stuck" with the RB. Since I have never believed the hype but I started shooting MLs before the maxi was invented and thought it was silly and still do. So I use the RB in my MLs except for a 40 caliber target rifle I am experimenting with pickets in out of curiosity. But I have had to build both a swage and a guide starter to get any accuracy. Loading with out a starter is simply a waste of powder.

Dan