Which blackpowder substitutes?

[tree]

I shoot mostly blackpowder in my muzzleloaders but thinking I will save it for my flintlocks. Any advice on which substitute might be best for my percussion rifles?

 

[rodwha]

I read that a lot of people like Black MZ. Light fouling and cheap price. It seems to produce velocities close to standard Goex.

If you want higher velocities such as what you see with Olde Eynsford or Swiss then you'll want to try Triple 7. Also light fouling.

I'm not a fan of Pyrodex.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Which are available to you?
If you have to order them you might as well order BP.
They all have positives and negatives..

Which qualities and characteristics are most important to you?

 

[Okie Hog]

It seems to produce velocities close to standard Goex.

i've chronographed Black MZ powder. It is more powerful than standard GOEX.

Black MZ works very well in my sidelock rifles.

 

[tree]

Colorado Clyde””- I have good resources here for a variety of the substitutes. When I get low enough on BP I order it in enough quantity to make the cost reasonable. Mainly I want it for less cleaning between shots and keep the big orders of BP down.

 

[don hepler]

I use Black MZ. It's sold locally at Sportsmans Warehouse. $9.99

Very little fouling.....easy clean....cheap.

Don't know about velocity...but I get good accuracy.

Pack it tight.

 

[Adui]

I use Black MZ. It's sold locally at Sportsmans Warehouse. $9.99

Very little fouling.....easy clean....cheap.

Don't know about velocity...but I get good accuracy.

Pack it tight.

Ditto

 

[mooman76]

I haven't tried it yet but I would go with Black MZ. Try a lb and if you don't like it, try something else. I've used Pyrodex for years and have had no problems with it but I used it because that was all I had and it is a bit dirty but more or less dirty doesn't mean much to me. Either way it needs to be cleaned.

 

[tree]

Thanks to all for their input””I will try the black MZ and see how it goes.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Triple seven works for me.

 

[rodwha]

I'm a bit curious how your results differed from a typical BP.

A fella on another forum tested powders in a revolver and found Black MZ (30 grn charges) to produce 713 fps (average) vs 672 fps for Grafs (Schuetzen). It's the only chronographed result I've seen for it.

 

[Okie Hog]

I'm a bit curious how your results differed from a typical BP.

i don't use black powder. Therefore, i don't chronograph the stuff: But i know folks who have:

These folks also tested Black MZ with patched round balls:

http://www.namlhunt.com/traditionalmldata5.html

Field and Stream magazine liked Black MZ powder:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.co...k-mz-wins-field-stream-best-of-the-best-award/

 

[rodwha]

I checked their .50 cal PRB load data against what I have in my 2nd edition Lyman handbook and see that it does produce more velocity than the same 3F Goex charge. Granted volume loads are hard to accurately compare as my set charge may not be equal to another's set charge despite both claiming 80 grns. Regardless it was a touch over 100 fps faster.

And that brings me to the question of whether it burns more efficiently or otherwise behaves different in a longer barrel.

One of the things the fella who conducted that test showed a 40 fps variable with Black MZ, whereas Grafs was nearly 6, Swiss was 11, and Olde E was 14. T7 also had a 41 fps variance.

As I share my powders between my two large caliber revolvers that are to be hunting buddies and therefor need a reasonable amount of performance (I figure .44 Spl performance is the minimum to feel comfortable) I only have a few options and Black MZ is not one of them. A 30 grn charge with a ball produced 713 fps and 157 ft/lbs. Granted I use 195 grn conicals with that much powder which would easily give it another 50-100 ft/lbs but that still wouldn't quite cut it for me. That same charge but with T7, Olde E, or Swiss produces 847-920 fps. From a rifle it isn't a big deal since the powder charge is much greater but I don't want to carry multiple powder flasks and need multiple powder orders so my pistols decide what I use.

Oh, and I no longer buy into what magazine writers have to say as they are often paid to write nice things about the products.

 

[Okie Hog]

A

fella on another forum tested powders in a revolver and found Black MZ (30 grn charges) to produce 713 fps (average) vs 672 fps for Grafs (Schuetzen). It's the only chronographed result I've seen for it.

Black MZ powder requires a tight fitting sabot/ball seated very hard on the powder. You can't do that with a revolver. You can't get there with a wooden rifle ramrod either.

From the Black MZ website:

Black MZ functions best when heavily compressed by the seated sabot.

100 grains of Back MZ powder is totally consumed in the 22" barrel of one of my rifles. No powder is burning outside the barrel. Total bullet travel is about 20.5". Little velocity is gained with a longer barrel.

Some time ago i chronographed 20 100 grain charges of Black MZ: SD was 17 fps.

 

[Okie Hog]

Correction:

Some CAS guys and girls really like Black MZ powder in their revolvers:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=60338.0

 

[Okie Hog]

Never mind. CAS uses cartridge guns.

 

[rodwha]

Why wouldn't one be able to highly compress a projectile with a revolver? Seems easier than with a rifle having the leverage provided by the lever.

Is Black MZ basically a 2F granulation?

That's some great consistency you get there!

 

[F.G. Ford]

I shoot mostly blackpowder in my muzzleloaders but thinking I will save it for my flintlocks. Any advice on which substitute might be best for my percussion rifles?

THERE ARE NONE! :shocked2: :rotf:
Seriously there are few if any that work so dependently as REAL BP ( BP is short for black powder )
Pyrodex absorbs moisture almost as fast as toilette paper.
In a powder horn, it will clump up like crazy.
I must admit that Tripple 7 is quite good, I honestly can't say how good it is after it is exposed to air. Most substitutes are designed for cartridge use, and inline guns.
Real black powder will absorb moisture, but you can dry it out.
Don't put it in the micro wave oven! :youcrazy:
Things might happen!
There was a fellow quite knowledgeable that use to hang out on this forum. He was well versed on the use of black powder. Mad Monk??
In the wonderful USA ( mainland ) you can order black powder to your door. You can't beat that.
I believe you must order it in 25 lb. lots.
Yes, it is a lot of powder, but if two or three guys get together and split the lot, it is not expensive. I must caution you that in some municipalities there are restrictions on amounts of powder stored in a residence.
There are lots of information on proper safe storage of black powder.
Get the real stuff and you will never regret it!
You will also regret not getting two more pounds.
That is enough for today!
Fred

 

[coloradoclyde]

Is Black MZ basically a 2F granulation?

Closer to 1F in my opinion.

If we look at performance over/time, production, and use....Pryrodex wins hands down.
Pyrodex has been around longer, and has been shot in more traditional muzzleloaders than any other substitute...

Pyrodex is also the only substitute that was specifically designed to be a direct replacement for Real Black Powder.
All the rest were designed to be used in modern ML's

The fact that Goex, Pyrodex, Trippe777, and Black MZ are all owned by Hodgdon....should be alarming. :shocked2:

 

[Okie Hog]

Why wouldn't one be able to highly compress a projectile with a revolver?

It's probably possible to compress Black MZ enough in a revolver cylinder: i just never tried.

i do have a couple cap and ball revolvers. One has never been fired. It might be time to break out that Walker copycat. Those cylinders would hold a lot of powder.