So, what would the concensus be on stock refinishing? I have a T/C New Englander that is posted in another topic, and a member had asked if I had access to any walnut for the repair, which I did not, nor did I get any. But anyways, the question is about stock refinishing. Do some here use a stain, then varnish, or just sand smooth then use oil or hand rub varnish on a wood such as this? It is kind of funny as I just read the other topic of hand rubbed finishes. The main question though is 'To stain, Or not to stain...'.
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Walnut Stock Refinishing
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Whether or not to stain depends on the wood you have and how you want it to look when finished.
If the wood is rather light coloured all around and you like it that way, don't stain it.
If it is somewhat darker walnut, you may like that with just the oil finish.
If you want it darker or a lot darker, then you need to stain it.
The only time I suggest stain right off the bat is when a stock has dark wood and some lighter coloured wood or sapwood in it. Then it is best to do at least the minimal staining to blend the stock into one homogeneous colour.
Oh, if you do stain it, I strongly suggest Fiebing's leather dye. If it gets too dark or splotchy, or any other problem; you can take off some, most or even all of it with alcohol or Acetone. I prefer to use their standard Medium Brown because it has a bit of red in it. I often mix it in a 1:1 ratio of alcohol or Acetone to get a lighter stain that I can "build up" the colour with additional coats to what I want. This is especially useful when you have a stock with varying amount of natural wood colour.
Oh, before you use this stain, I strongly recommend a thinned down coat of Birchwood Casey's Tru Oil be applied before the stain. And after you rub it in hard, wipe as much as you can off the surface before it dries. This will ensure you don't get blotches in the end grain of the stock. Allow that coat to dry overnight or all day if you can put it out in the sun. Then lightly sand with the finest grit sand paper you used, wipe or vacuum off the dust and begin applying the dye in light coats.
Gus
If the wood is rather light coloured all around and you like it that way, don't stain it.
If it is somewhat darker walnut, you may like that with just the oil finish.
If you want it darker or a lot darker, then you need to stain it.
The only time I suggest stain right off the bat is when a stock has dark wood and some lighter coloured wood or sapwood in it. Then it is best to do at least the minimal staining to blend the stock into one homogeneous colour.
Oh, if you do stain it, I strongly suggest Fiebing's leather dye. If it gets too dark or splotchy, or any other problem; you can take off some, most or even all of it with alcohol or Acetone. I prefer to use their standard Medium Brown because it has a bit of red in it. I often mix it in a 1:1 ratio of alcohol or Acetone to get a lighter stain that I can "build up" the colour with additional coats to what I want. This is especially useful when you have a stock with varying amount of natural wood colour.
Oh, before you use this stain, I strongly recommend a thinned down coat of Birchwood Casey's Tru Oil be applied before the stain. And after you rub it in hard, wipe as much as you can off the surface before it dries. This will ensure you don't get blotches in the end grain of the stock. Allow that coat to dry overnight or all day if you can put it out in the sun. Then lightly sand with the finest grit sand paper you used, wipe or vacuum off the dust and begin applying the dye in light coats.
Gus
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Oh, after you have it dyed - rub the dickens out of it with a Terrycloth Wash Rag or small towel. Take it OUTDOORS in the sunlight and see if the colour is even and/or as dark as you want, before applying the Oil Finish. If not, apply more dye as needed and repeat the above process before you put oil on it. Just keep in mind it will get a little darker with the oil dried on it.
Gus
Gus
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Oh, FWIW and since you are going to patch the stock - I have found it much more important to match the grain of the patch wood piece to the grain of the stock around the patch as best you can and not worry about the colour match. You can blend in the colour by staining it.
Gus
Gus
Don't forget.
Walnut, when freshly sanded looks much lighter than it will be after a finishing oil is applied to it.
More than a few people have looked at their sanded walnut stock and thought, "I've got to stain this to make it look like dark walnut."
After staining it and applying the finishing oils they ended up with a stock that was nearly black.
To find what your stock will look like after it is stained, get a wet wash rag.
Go outside or find a good, bright light source.
Wipe the rag on the stock and study the color.
The light wood will immediately turn into the dark color it really will have when finishing oils (without stains) are applied.
After you do this, lightly sand any grain that is raised by the moisture and give some thought to how it looked.
Most likely, you won't need to stain it at all.
Walnut, when freshly sanded looks much lighter than it will be after a finishing oil is applied to it.
More than a few people have looked at their sanded walnut stock and thought, "I've got to stain this to make it look like dark walnut."
After staining it and applying the finishing oils they ended up with a stock that was nearly black.
To find what your stock will look like after it is stained, get a wet wash rag.
Go outside or find a good, bright light source.
Wipe the rag on the stock and study the color.
The light wood will immediately turn into the dark color it really will have when finishing oils (without stains) are applied.
After you do this, lightly sand any grain that is raised by the moisture and give some thought to how it looked.
Most likely, you won't need to stain it at all.
ohio ramrod
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When repairing furniture I always wipe the repaired area with a paint thinner soaked rag to get the "finished" color and detect any glue smears that need sanded more. :idunno:
Thank you all for your time, help, and advice. I will be sanding the stock this weekend hopefully and will most definitely be trying the water trick as I had not thought of it. It would appear to be the quickest and easiest way to see the outcome. I will post a couple of pictures of the remaining damaged area as well, but am not possibly done yet in that area, but I do not know what the original looks like as it was all taped up with electrical tape when received. Thank you.
don hepler
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I have refinished many TC's. Most people can't even tell that they have been refinished. Now, I'm not talking about finishing a custom gun, I'm telling you how to duplicate a TC finish.
If you mix a little red mahogany with walnut stain, you can duplicate some of the TC finishes. Then using Tru-Oil, wipe on light coats, using lint-free cloth. After you apply the final coat, wait until the next day and lightly spray Minwax polyurethane Satin for the final finish coat. If you want a little more shine, use semi-gloss, but satin will hid the repairs better and closer match the factory finish.
Again let me make it clear, this is for duplicating TC finish not for hand rubbed custom rifles. There is no sanding between coats and it is about as simple as it gets. This was not my idea, I got it from some other web site. I have used it on dozens of rifles, pistol grips, and etc.
Try it on some scrap, and you will see.
If you mix a little red mahogany with walnut stain, you can duplicate some of the TC finishes. Then using Tru-Oil, wipe on light coats, using lint-free cloth. After you apply the final coat, wait until the next day and lightly spray Minwax polyurethane Satin for the final finish coat. If you want a little more shine, use semi-gloss, but satin will hid the repairs better and closer match the factory finish.
Again let me make it clear, this is for duplicating TC finish not for hand rubbed custom rifles. There is no sanding between coats and it is about as simple as it gets. This was not my idea, I got it from some other web site. I have used it on dozens of rifles, pistol grips, and etc.
Try it on some scrap, and you will see.
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I have seen folks use water, white gasoline, mineral spirits, turpentine, etc., etc. to see what wood may look like after the oil finish is applied.
Personally, I don't want to add water to a stock that is already at the proper moisture content. I realize folks don't mean to soak/saturate the wood, but I see nothing good about adding additional water. It is fine for lumber, but not good for a gun stock.
I already mentioned using a thinned coat of Tru Oil on a stock as a first step. Take it outside on a day that is calm and BINGO, you have a pretty complete picture of the colour it will be, though not quite. Wipe as much as you can off the outside before you set it aside to dry. This is to seal the stock, BUT it also shows you what colour the stock will be CLOSE TO when the rest of the real finish is applied. It will get a tiny bit darker with more coats, but only a tiny little bit.
Now, I have also wet a stock with an acetone soaked wad of paper towels outdoors, before, to see what the wood will look like after finish is applied. That freaks some folks out because it is volatile, but it is never a problem unless it is close to an open flame. I do wear chemical resistant gloves and don't inhale the fumes. The good thing is the Acetone very quickly evaporates and leaves NOTHING behind that might harm the wood or finish.
Yet, the easiest, least harmful/damaging thing is to actually USE a thinned coat of the same finish one uses to see what natural colour is in the wood of a stock. Then you can figure out if you want to stain it or not.
Gus
Personally, I don't want to add water to a stock that is already at the proper moisture content. I realize folks don't mean to soak/saturate the wood, but I see nothing good about adding additional water. It is fine for lumber, but not good for a gun stock.
I already mentioned using a thinned coat of Tru Oil on a stock as a first step. Take it outside on a day that is calm and BINGO, you have a pretty complete picture of the colour it will be, though not quite. Wipe as much as you can off the outside before you set it aside to dry. This is to seal the stock, BUT it also shows you what colour the stock will be CLOSE TO when the rest of the real finish is applied. It will get a tiny bit darker with more coats, but only a tiny little bit.
Now, I have also wet a stock with an acetone soaked wad of paper towels outdoors, before, to see what the wood will look like after finish is applied. That freaks some folks out because it is volatile, but it is never a problem unless it is close to an open flame. I do wear chemical resistant gloves and don't inhale the fumes. The good thing is the Acetone very quickly evaporates and leaves NOTHING behind that might harm the wood or finish.
Yet, the easiest, least harmful/damaging thing is to actually USE a thinned coat of the same finish one uses to see what natural colour is in the wood of a stock. Then you can figure out if you want to stain it or not.
Gus
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BTW, I can not stress strongly enough that you must have at least one thinned coat of Tru Oil or some kind of finish on walnut, before you stain it. If you don't do that, the stain will soak deeply into the exposed end grain. Then finish sand it with the last grit sandpaper again, remove the dust and stain away.
I hope I will be forgiven the example of walnut M1 Garand stocks, BUT most folks have seen a few of them over the years and can visualize what I refer to. On the stocks that did not have a sealer coat, the stain soaks much more deeply on top and below the grip, ahead of the comb, and sometimes down the bottom of the butt area of the stock. This is because those areas are actually exposed end grain that soaks up the stain faster.
That single thinned coat of Tru Oil as a sealer will make it very easy to get the same colour on the entire stock, including the parts with exposed end grain.
Gus
I hope I will be forgiven the example of walnut M1 Garand stocks, BUT most folks have seen a few of them over the years and can visualize what I refer to. On the stocks that did not have a sealer coat, the stain soaks much more deeply on top and below the grip, ahead of the comb, and sometimes down the bottom of the butt area of the stock. This is because those areas are actually exposed end grain that soaks up the stain faster.
That single thinned coat of Tru Oil as a sealer will make it very easy to get the same colour on the entire stock, including the parts with exposed end grain.
Gus
don hepler
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This is the last TC that I refinished, per the instructions, described earlier. I reshaped the comb and fitted it with an Armi-Sport 20 gauge smooth bore.
don hepler
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This picture is better or maybe not.
IMO, a little water on bare wood is a good thing.
It almost always raises some of the grain, forming whiskers that can be sanded off once they are dry.
Removing the whiskers before staining prevents them from popping up after the stain is applied.
It almost always raises some of the grain, forming whiskers that can be sanded off once they are dry.
Removing the whiskers before staining prevents them from popping up after the stain is applied.
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Jim,
Back in the early/mid 70's, I experimented with whiskering on stocks that were both up to 10 years old and had either been originally arsenal finished then stripped and NOS stocks that had never been oiled or a finish applied. Also tried it on brand new walnut stocks from Bishop and Reinhart Fajen. Also tried it on walnut M1 Garand stocks that were up to as old as WWII then.
I found that when using just a moistened sponge or cloth, that one could use it to wet the stock and then whisker it, but the grain would still raise with the first coat of finish. Tried wetting and whiskering up to 5 times before applying the first coat of finish and the grain still rose. That's when I gave up on whiskering walnut stocks with water.
I have also tried whiskering walnut stocks with Acetone in the same manner, because it evaporates so quickly and nothing is left in the wood. Same results, though if one wishes to whisker, one can do it faster and more times than waiting on water to dry or be dried.
This is another reason why I suggest a thinned coat of finish be applied to a stock and then sanded with the last grit of sandpaper before dyeing/staining. Yes, leather dye or other stains will still raise the grain a little, but that's why one rubs the dickens out of the stock with a terrycloth towel. It actually burnishes the resultant whiskers. The following coat or two of finish will also raise the grain a bit, but one takes care of that by using the Gray Color "Scotch Brite" type abrasive pads made to equal 000 steel wool on the stocks to smooth out the finish (including any remaining grain raising) between coats. These pads are found in the paint section of large Box Hardware stores like Home Depot, Lowe's etc. I gave up on using steel wool when these came out because they won't leave little steel "hairs" in the finish and it is easy to vacuum or wipe off the residue left by the abrasive pads, before applying each successive coat of oil.
IOW, I have never found any amount of raising the grain and whiskering will stop the grain raising on walnut for the first two or even three coats of finish, even if no stain is used.
Gus
Back in the early/mid 70's, I experimented with whiskering on stocks that were both up to 10 years old and had either been originally arsenal finished then stripped and NOS stocks that had never been oiled or a finish applied. Also tried it on brand new walnut stocks from Bishop and Reinhart Fajen. Also tried it on walnut M1 Garand stocks that were up to as old as WWII then.
I found that when using just a moistened sponge or cloth, that one could use it to wet the stock and then whisker it, but the grain would still raise with the first coat of finish. Tried wetting and whiskering up to 5 times before applying the first coat of finish and the grain still rose. That's when I gave up on whiskering walnut stocks with water.
I have also tried whiskering walnut stocks with Acetone in the same manner, because it evaporates so quickly and nothing is left in the wood. Same results, though if one wishes to whisker, one can do it faster and more times than waiting on water to dry or be dried.
This is another reason why I suggest a thinned coat of finish be applied to a stock and then sanded with the last grit of sandpaper before dyeing/staining. Yes, leather dye or other stains will still raise the grain a little, but that's why one rubs the dickens out of the stock with a terrycloth towel. It actually burnishes the resultant whiskers. The following coat or two of finish will also raise the grain a bit, but one takes care of that by using the Gray Color "Scotch Brite" type abrasive pads made to equal 000 steel wool on the stocks to smooth out the finish (including any remaining grain raising) between coats. These pads are found in the paint section of large Box Hardware stores like Home Depot, Lowe's etc. I gave up on using steel wool when these came out because they won't leave little steel "hairs" in the finish and it is easy to vacuum or wipe off the residue left by the abrasive pads, before applying each successive coat of oil.
IOW, I have never found any amount of raising the grain and whiskering will stop the grain raising on walnut for the first two or even three coats of finish, even if no stain is used.
Gus
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emphasis addedArtificer said:
what do you use to thin the TruOil? Thanks!
Billnpatti
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Once you get your stock sanded as much as you want and have removed all of the dust, wipe it down with some mineral spirits to see what it will look like after you apply the varnish. The mineral spirits will quickly dry and not effect the wood but will just let you know what the varnished stock will look like. If it is not dark enough, you can stain it to the color that you want. I have used leather dye and I have used Birchwood Casey's gun stock stain. I have also used regular wood stain such as that made by Minwax. Different stains for different colors on different woods. Which you use will depend on what you want the end product to look like.
I think T/C used different woods to make their stocks. I have one, that when I stripped to re-finish it, looked like it was made of walnut. I have another that when stripped, looked like maple that had been stained to look like walnut. You just have to first completely strip the old finish off the stock and then re-stain and re-finish it like you want it to look. I just re-finished a stock using Minwax Wipe On Poly in clear satin that I applied in 6 very light coats that I apppied with my fingertips and rubbed in thoroughly leaving no runs or drips anywhere. I just applied a bit to my fingertips and worked a small area. Then I applied some in the same manner to another small area until I had the whole stock coated with a very light coat of the Wipe On Poly. I let it dry and then lightly buffed it with 4-0 steel wool. I removed all traces of dust before applying a second coat of the poly. Keep doing this until you have 5 or 6 coats of poly on your stock. It will give an amazingly beautiful finish that is extremely durable.
I think T/C used different woods to make their stocks. I have one, that when I stripped to re-finish it, looked like it was made of walnut. I have another that when stripped, looked like maple that had been stained to look like walnut. You just have to first completely strip the old finish off the stock and then re-stain and re-finish it like you want it to look. I just re-finished a stock using Minwax Wipe On Poly in clear satin that I applied in 6 very light coats that I apppied with my fingertips and rubbed in thoroughly leaving no runs or drips anywhere. I just applied a bit to my fingertips and worked a small area. Then I applied some in the same manner to another small area until I had the whole stock coated with a very light coat of the Wipe On Poly. I let it dry and then lightly buffed it with 4-0 steel wool. I removed all traces of dust before applying a second coat of the poly. Keep doing this until you have 5 or 6 coats of poly on your stock. It will give an amazingly beautiful finish that is extremely durable.
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Generally I use mineral spirits.
Gus
Gus
