Trigger Sear Arm Height

[Joemolf]

I’ve attached a picture of a single trigger that is supposed to be used with a Lancaster preinlet stock; I purchased both from Track I’m sure other vendors sell them as well that is the trigger assembly. It is a York and is referenced on the plans and the stock is pre inlet specifically for this trigger assembly.
So this is my question/problem. The sear arm is exceptionally short too short to go any further with installing it permanently. On another Lancaster I was working on earlier in the year I used a double set trigger. I messed up the second trigger on that one (trimmed the trigger sear bar Too short) and ordered a replacement trigger. The odd thing was the replacement triggers sear arm was significantly shorter in height as to the trigger that came as a group but it was high enough to work and only required the slightest of trimming. 6 months later I am working on getting the trigger assembly installed. Now this is a pre inlet stock the lock inlet corresponds to the orientation of the lock on plans. It not a matter of the lock being inlet incorrectly. I just want to make that clear. So I clean up the inlet for the trigger plate and have it so the pivot point is about 1/4 inch per the instructions. That too is irrelevant. With the trigger plate inlet into the stock and the lock in place I have full travel front to back with no engagement of the sear. The sear arm on the trigger appears to be about a 1/4 inch to short? I’ve ordered triggers before and the trigger sear arm always had hiegt unlike this one. So it’s pretty obvious to me I either have to make one or call track and ask them why it the trigger sear arm is so short. Knowing i will get nowhere with them! So hear i am asking those who know does the trigger assembly attached trigger sear arm look way too short? I really don’t want to make a trigger maybe silver solder an extension on if that is a viable option? Find out from track who the vendor is and call them directly. I already know the trigger sear arm is too short from others and no it’s not a matter of the trigger assembly not being set in deep enough. Thanks for your response!

 

[Joemolf]

I measured the stock and I can go and did go a little deeper with the trigger plate but it didn’t buy me much. I’m leaving it where it is and will need a trigger with a higher sear plate. I lowered the plate it gave me a 1/16 of trigger play. So I have a ton almost the full length of trigger play uninstalled. It barely engages the sear. I set the trigger 1/4 inch from the pin to the center of the sear. According to recreating the American long rifle the further you go the heavier the trigger pull. 1/4 to 3/8 no less than 1/4 and no greater then 3/8 if i read it correctly. Only way I can see getting rid of all the trigger play is with a trigger that has a higher trigger sear plate. What they show on the plan is 3/8!of an inch taller then what I have. What am I missing?

 

[EC121]

Solder a piece on the bar and make it whatever you want.

 

[Joemolf]

Correction I purchased the stock from a wood supplier not track but essentially from what I can see it profiled the same only better quality in that there’s no excessive drifting of the ramrod channel and the sides are cut evenly. It is sold as a kit with all the same parts from TOTW. I just purchased the stock. When I asked about some of the parts I was told they get them from Track.

 

[Joemolf]

Solder a piece on the bar and make it whatever you want.

Appears I am going to have to go that way. Funny the plans state there are no alternative parts for the trigger group.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Yep, the simplest thing to do is to silver solder on a piece of steel to the trigger bar and file it to what you need.

 

[deerstalkert]

have you had the trigger out of the plate? there may be an alternative pin hole that will raise the trigger plate. when i make a trigger i give myself those options.

 

[Joemolf]

No sir i have not. Being the stock was pre inlet all I did was verify the location of the swivel point with the sear and add the notch for the mounds that support the trigger. I did inlet the trigger plate a bit more and that got me to where I was able to trip the lock but I have way too much free play. I’m pretty sure it is only configured with one hole but I will check. I’m just wondering why this is. I’m not making this up when I purchased the original Lancaster transition rifle from track several years ago I purchased two set triggers figuring I would build another. The two trigger are identical and they both had plenty of material to take down to get the trigger set right. I goofed up on my first attempt with the rear trigger I took to much off. So rather than use the spare trigger assembly I ordered a replacement trigger. The replacement did not come close in height to the original. It was a drastic difference. Now here i am with the trigger assembly that is supposed to be the one designed specifically for this stock and it needs about 5/16 of an inch of material added to it. After all is said and done I should have just bought a Bivins trigger and trigger plate and pinned it to the stock like the pros do. But I am not a pro and I couldn’t find clear instructions of how to locate it in the stock. So I chose the easier method. The easier method is recommending in Recreating the American Long Rifle. I think it is also a better and stronger method for installing a pin through the stock though I understand it works and holds up well. Even on Kibler kits which as you probably know go together with the minimal amount of work but you still have to trim the trigger sear plate. Lol i had no intention of working this rifle this far. I bought it to work on next year God willing. I just wanted to get the barrel in I felt it would be safer. But after the barrel came the lock and then of course the trigger. Once I have the trigger squared away I will put it away until I’m finished with the one I put on the back burner. I’m a wreck. I’ll let you know about the additional hole. Thanks!

 

[Joemolf]

I knocked out the pin only one hole. No room for another to raise the trigger

 

[IanH]

Just make another trigger out of mild steel, or file the sides of the shoe and raise the one you have by drilling a new hole.

You actually have a bigger problem if that trigger doesn't reach: The pivot point is too low and will not swing at the correct angle to not slide and drag on the sear bar.

 

[Joemolf]

Agree. Id have to raise it more than is there and don’t want a brown bess trigger. I ordered a Bivins trigger and plate from Track ill pin it someday when I find instructions on how to locate it properly.

 

[Joemolf]

Just make another trigger out of mild steel, or file the sides of the shoe and raise the one you have by drilling a new hole.

You actually have a bigger problem if that trigger doesn't reach: The pivot point is too low and will not swing at the correct angle to not slide and drag on the sear bar.

So you are saying the lugs would also have to be taller I’m assuming so the pivot point would need to be higher? Thanks for your help!

 

[IanH]

Yes. This is a common defect with most single trigger plates having integral lugs. Draw an imaginary line from the bottom of the sear arm through the center of the sear pivot screw, place a long piece of masking tape along the outside of the stock at this exact angle from about where the touch hole is until it starts to spiral around the wrist. Pencil a line along the edge, through the middle of the sear arm hole in the stock. Put your trigger assembly beside the stock and observe the angle of an imaginary line drawn from the center of the pivot pin to the contact point on the trigger when the trigger bar touches the sear bar. You want those two lines to be as parallel as possible and the trigger pivot to be about 1/4" to 5/16" up the line directly toward the sear screw from the contact point on the bottom of the sear bar. I hope that made sense. The book "Recreating the American Longrifle" that's available from all the MZ supply stores and elsewhere in a brief internet search has an illustrated explanation of this. The book is well worth the cover price when read.

 

[Joemolf]

Yes. This is a common defect with most single trigger plates having integral lugs. Draw an imaginary line from the bottom of the sear arm through the center of the sear pivot screw, place a long piece of masking tape along the outside of the stock at this exact angle from about where the touch hole is until it starts to spiral around the wrist. Pencil a line along the edge, through the middle of the sear arm hole in the stock. Put your trigger assembly beside the stock and observe the angle of an imaginary line drawn from the center of the pivot pin to the contact point on the trigger when the trigger bar touches the sear bar. You want those two lines to be as parallel as possible and the trigger pivot to be about 1/4" to 5/16" up the line directly toward the sear screw from the contact point on the bottom of the sear bar. I hope that made sense. The book "Recreating the American Longrifle" that's available from all the MZ supply stores and elsewhere in a brief internet search has an illustrated explanation of this. The book is well worth the cover price when read.

I did read through the trigger section and the chart referencing the angles. That was over my head though I’ll look again. It didn’t seem to be as clear as you described thank you!!! So it sounds like I have to set the trigger plate much deeper. The plans are for a C profile I’m hoping the overall all dimensions are smaller for the B profile I’m working on. On the last one I installed a double set trigger which installed well with time. I will reread the trigger section and apply your directions and see where I end up. Thanks again clear and concise
Thank you !
Joe

 

[IanH]

You could also make or order another trigger and pin it up high in the stock. The trigger pivot point doesn't have to be perfect to work, but does need to be pretty close if you want the best pull weight and feel.

Pictures of the stock, down through the sear bar hole with the lock out and trigger plate in would help. You don't want to ruin the wrist profile just to try to make the wrong part fit.

 

[necchi]

What am I missing?

Uhm, proper install of the trigger plate?
Trigger plate position is not always "flush" with the factory pre-inlet guidelines.
Nor is the entire shape/fit of that area.
Maybe you need to take some wood away from there?
"Pre-inlet" is of itself guidelines with no guarantee of fit or function.
Maybe you'll do better buying a blank?
Considering the aspect that you have purchased your inventory from multiple suppliers, you should proceed with "{your}" preferred application.
You need to do your work that goes much beyond simple 'install" of the parts you have gathered,
make them fit,,,,,, you bought part's,,,,,,

 

[Joemolf]

Yes I do realize that. The pre inlet trigger plate is just a starting point. To be inlet forward or aft and down. I did not check the geometry as Ian suggested. The parts I ordered the TP trigger plate assembly are supposedly specifically made to be used with the stock I purchased. The plans clearly state use the TP Trigger plate there are no alternates. I built the same rifle only I used a double set trigger. It required a lot of work for me. But it works nicely. I reviewed the Recreation of the American Long Rifle again last night after Ian gave me some good intel. I’m going to try to ascertain the angles today sometime. I think the trigger plate needs to go much deeper maybe forward or aft but that is easy. Well not easy because it is time consuming. I have the time. Thank you for your feedback!
Joe

 

[Joemolf]

You could also make or order another trigger and pin it up high in the stock. The trigger pivot point doesn't have to be perfect to work, but does need to be pretty close if you want the best pull weight and feel.

Pictures of the stock, down through the sear bar hole with the lock out and trigger plate in would help. You don't want to ruin the wrist profile just to try to make the wrong part fit.

Thanks Ian! I’ll post up suggested pictures later today.

 

[Cooleys]

I’m with Ian on this one. You don’t have to make that trigger plate mechanism work. First, draw out the angle needed for the sear to engage the trigger bar. Then buy or make a trigger with plenty of material to engage the sear where it needs to. File off the yokes from the trigger plate and pin the trigger into the stock. A 1/16” drill stock is fine and is usually concealed by the lock and side plate. This way you determine the trigger geometry, not pre-fab inlets or parts.
Good luck and I look forward to seeing the progress!
-Steve

 

[flatcreek]

If you have a Mig welder just lay a bead or two on it and file to shape. I've done that and it works fine. In fact my trigger was tall enough and I cut it to short. To much free travel so I built it up to get rid of it.