Traditional Hunters in Michigan, it's our time...

[PDB]

Stumblin Buffler
PM has been sent with details. :hatsoff:
Keep us posted on developments

 

[Tahquamenon]

I'm only supporting flintlock and earlier ignition, longbow, fixed open sights, patched roundball and black powder or commercially available substitute.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Chris,

Sent you an email.

eace:

Tahquamenon

 

[16gauge]

I've been on vacation for two weeks and just found this thread.....I support this push also; if there is anything I can do, please let me know. I will try and get my letter to the DNR to you by the end of the weekend.

I'm only supporting flintlock and earlier ignition, longbow, fixed open sights, patched roundball and black powder or commercially available substitute.

I don't know what the DNR is thinking, but I would support the following: Sidelocks (percusion or Flint...or 'earlier"), loose powder (BP or substitute), open sights, and either patched round ball or solid lead conicals the same caliber as the gun (no sabots). I think that this would fit the requirements of a "primative" or "traditional" hunt while including as many firearms as possible....and there is strength in numbers! I think that someone hunting with a 1861 Springfield and a Minie ball is in the same ball park (ballisticlly) as someone hunting with a flintlock Hawken and patched round ball. I'e heard the argument 100 times over that "inlines were developed and used in 1700 and something..."; maybe, but they sure weren't shooting them with 209 shotshell primers and 33-4 pellest of pyrodex (or worse, smokeless powder) and plastic sabots holding a jacketed bullet!
MHO, FWIW.

 

[bezoar]

But by "primitive" i assuem you intend it only to be for muzzleloaders that only have nice wood stocks and period correct mechanisms and breech systems; thus outlawing every weapon stocked in composite materials with mechanisms designed to improve performance, and also outlawing the sidelocks from TC that have the removable breech plug for easier cleaning?
Im just wondering that because if you banned those low priced composite stocks, youd be losing out on most of your potential ticket buyers and thus would prevent your primitive season from happneing as the DNR only starts a season if they know they will make lots of money.
And at the same time outlawing the non period correct weapons would make even fewer people ,even tho they are sidleocks, participate because to buy a proper primitive firelock is going to cost at least 400 dollars for a caliber sufficient for deer and still fit into the "primitive" nature of the season.

 

But by "primitive" i assuem you intend it only to be for muzzleloaders that only have nice wood stocks and period correct mechanisms and breech systems; thus outlawing every weapon stocked in composite materials with mechanisms designed to improve performance, and also outlawing the sidelocks from TC that have the removable breech plug for easier cleaning?
Im just wondering that because if you banned those low priced composite stocks, youd be losing out on most of your potential ticket buyers and thus would prevent your primitive season from happneing as the DNR only starts a season if they know they will make lots of money.
And at the same time outlawing the non period correct weapons would make even fewer people ,even tho they are sidleocks, participate because to buy a proper primitive firelock is going to cost at least 400 dollars for a caliber sufficient for deer and still fit into the "primitive" nature of the season.

I hunted with a TC Hawken for years and years, a CVA Kentucky, and a Traditions Fox River. You can pick up a Tradtions Hawken or other flint or percussion gun on a wood stock for well under $300.00. No one said that the regulations would include "said firearm must have P++ curly maple or better stock, Siler lock and Colerain barrel...."

As far as composite stocks go, though, there already is a regular "muzzleloader" season in the state of Michigan in which you can shoot any thing that stuffs from the front. As far as removable breech plugs in muzzleloaders, I think that they are a bad idea anyway, but, that's another topic all together.

We aren't talking about outlawing anything or changing the current rules for the Michigan Muzzleloading Season, just opening a separate season for hunters who want to hunt with traditional guns, which will generate more money for the state in tag sales (Michigan has one of the largest existing Black Powder communities in the Nation), and also boost sales for traditional off-the-shelf guns and give black powder shooting and hunting a shot in the arm.

 

[Dave K]

I sure hope Mich. gets this season! I also hope Ohio follows suit if you get it.

 

UPDATE:

CO Pinson and I are meeting sometime next week (I think) to discuss this and I'm going to gather some other folks together for the palaver. Next two commission meetings are in October in Lansing and November in the SE Michigan district.

I'll let you guys know what needs doing.

Thanks!

 

[Tahquamenon]

Why not simply push to have the modern muzzleloaders removed from the existing December ML seasons?

Which I think we would have better odds of getting a primitive season on the Planet Mars than to have the modern ML removed from the present Michigan ML season.

I already know why I think a new season might happen, fairly easily.

I'm not arguing, but I wanted your take as to why you think a new primitive season versus just cleaning up what is existing as some have often suggested?

 

Why not simply push to have the modern muzzleloaders removed from the existing December ML seasons?

Which I think we would have better odds of getting a primitive season on the Planet Mars than to have the modern ML removed from the present Michigan ML season.

I already know why I think a new season might happen, fairly easily.

I'm not arguing, but I wanted your take as to why you think a new primitive season versus just cleaning up what is existing as some have often suggested?

In a word, MONEY. Outdoor sports in the state of Michigan currently pump about two billion dollars into the bank a year. Excluding hunters from a given season that have been generating money is going to be hard to convince the state to do. Inlines got in, and it's going to be easier to convince the state to let us buy more tags for another season than it is to not sell as many so that people will have to use flintlocks.

There's another intersting dynamic down here in the southern half of the Lower Pennisula, too. In the past few years I have run into more and more hunters using inline guns during the regular gun season. Given another opportunity to hunt, I think that they could easily be convinced to invest in another gun.

Would I rather see muzzleloader season turned into Black Powder season? Sure, but that's not what happened, nor do I think that it can be easily. For the time being I'll settle for an extra week that could entice those hunters to pick up a side lock, get out and shoot a little more and maybe even show up at a rendezvous.

Thanks for keeping up the interest in this, Tahq!

 

[Tahquamenon]

Stumblin, you wise devil!

:agree:

Wholeheartedly.

:thumbsup:

 

[sir henry]

Count me in I've signed petitions befor but this sounds like the correct manner to get it to happen! :thumbsup: :front: :hatsoff:

 

[16gauge]

I would like to see the December season become a "primative season" as opposed to a "muzzleloading season" also.....however, as someone already stated, the genie is out of the bottle. Also, with problems such as TB, decreased deer numbers in much of the state, ect, there are a lot of disgruntled deer hunters that think that the DNR are nothing more that a bunch of moronic buffoons. Banning in-lines during the Dec. season would just add to the problem.

Inlines got in, and it's going to be easier to convince the state to let us buy more tags for another season than it is to not sell as many so that people will have to use flintlocks.

Unless they come up with a seperate, "primative" tag I don't see how more revenue will be generated. As it stands now (if memory serves me correctly), MI hunters are allowed only 2 buck tags, and can use them in any season as they see fit, i.e. they can use them both during archery, one for archery and one for rifle (or muzzleloader), or both during firearms season. Am I missing something here? Do you think that by adding a primative season, more hunters will buy licenses and head to the woods? Just curious.
Finally, while I think that this is a great idea, I can already hear the bow hunters screeming like banshees if they try to set up this season in the first part of Oct. The majority of my experiences with bowhunters in the fall woods have been negative: I have had people storm up to me and threaten me and my dog for being 'to close' to thier bait pile and scaring all "thier" deer away...and this was on state land. Expect a united front of bowhunters to stand in the way of this proposal.....they were quite vocal about not allowing crossbows during "thier" season....I don't see as to how they will be any more receptive to flinters and caplocks.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Correct,

But adding a primitive (Again I'm for flintlock or earlier) and longbow the tail end of October or the first week of November stands a good chance in my view. Its either during the last week of the now bow season during that two week gap prior to regular firearm that starts on Nov 15th.

I think there is a good chance even with the bow hunters. But you are correct, they will fight to protect their slice of the pie for sure without some compromise or if they are not loosing anything.

I think revenues will be easy to substantiate as it will be during a time when folks are not hunting anyway. That will be more spending in the stores and shops. I agree that there will not be more in buck tag sales but it might spur addtional doe tag sales later in the seasons, which is something the DNR favors.

 

[KenB]

I purchased my first muzzleloader just for deer hunting. I bought a CVA Hunterbolt 209 for two reasons. First, I liked the extra hunting season this afforded me. Second, I hunt in shotgun only territory in southern Michigan. Getting the CVA rifle got me something more accurate than the shotguns I was using, and for a reasonable price compared to getting a slug shotgun.

The reason I bring this up is that I don't agree with putting restrictions on the existing season. This would be bad for many people who bought these moden muzzleloaders which, to me, seem rather popular. They would have less useful rifles that would probably be hard to sell off without a big loss.

Also, many people who are accustomed to modern rifles can find these nicely packaged in-line rifles as a good stepping stone towards traditional black powder rifles. That's what happened to me.

 

[16gauge]

O.K. Ken, what would you think of this......

For the Dec. muzzleloading season, inlines would be allowed, but only with loose powder (black powder or substitute, such as pyrodex), and patched round ball or lead conical. Then there wouldn't be a need for a 'traditional' season, as all firearms used during this time would be essentially ballistically equal.

Does that sound like a fair deal? You would still be able to use your gun during the regular & muzzleloading seasons, and you could load it up to the ballistic equivelant of a modern centerfire for the regular season (which, btw, are illegal to use in the southern half of the lower penninsula...the original idea of shotguns & muzzleloaders in the lower third of the state was for safety reasons; slugs and muzzleloading projectiles didn't travel great distances (until someone developed sabots and powerbelts :shake
So how bout it....?

 

Could the TMA possibly help with this sort of thing...not only in Michigan, but in other states where Reps have been established?

Roundball,.... Two TMA Michigan State Field Reps. have stated they will be in contact with Michigan's CO Ron, and plan to represent the TMA in future discussions. :thumbsup:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[KenB]

16gauge...
I can understand you point. However, I hate to see the state revoke privilages or add restrictions to an existing season. Adding a new traditional season would be a good idea in my opinion, but I wouldn't want to see the existing season modified since this would make things difficult for some people.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, don't get me wrong, but why do you want to make the season more restrictive? Is your intention to cut down on the number of hunters? Reduce the number of deer taken?

 

[bnail]

I'm there SB. :RO:
In fact, the UP state fair is next week, and I bet some of our reps will be there. :thumbsup:

 

[16gauge]

Ken;
As much as I would like to see a primative season in MI, I have a feeling it will be an uphill battle......with all the complaining going on about how the DNR has 'wiped out the deer herd', esp. in DMU 452, I think this proposed season will meet with a LOT of resistance from bow & rifle hunters. Just like the Youth seasons, there will always be a highly vocal minority that will scream about someone killing "their" deer before their season.
As far as the Dec. season goes, I feel that the original intent was for this to be a primative season; back in 1975 when the season started, muzzleloading=primative. There were no such things as in-lines (with the exception of a few custom models), and everyone was hunting with caplocks, for the most part. Then 'advances' in technology came along, and the DNR just didn't bother to put it's foot down and say, "No, that's not within the intention of the season". Things then spiraled out of control to what we have today. I don't think that the DNR saw it coming...and it was just easier for them to O.K. everything that came down the pike than try and maintain the season as a primative one.

why do you want to make the season more restrictive?

My intent is to get the season back to what it was intended to be....a primative season.

Is your intention to cut down on the number of hunters?

When I first started hunting the primative season, I was usually the only one in the woods, and I must admit that I liked that....however, no one with an in line would be restircted from using it during the Dec. season.....it just would have to be loaded differently. How long before the DNR crumbles and allows smokeless powder instead of BP? What would the difference be between a muzzleloader shooting a jacketed bullet and smokeless powder and a Ruger #1 centerfire? Nothing....other than one doesn't have it's components loaded in a brass case.

Reduce the number of deer taken?

That is not my intent, but in some areas it might not be a bad idea. The DNR, IMHO, really needs to rethink it's policy on using county lines as boundries for DMU....they really need to think in terms of smaller parcels....MUCH smaller.

I hate to see the state revoke privilages or add restrictions to an existing season.

Hey, it happens all the time! Check out the small game regulations....limits are cut, areas are placed off limits, seasons are shortened, ect, ect. Why should deer hunters be exempt? No one is saying they can't hunt the season....they just have to modify how they do it.

Take care. eace: