Tomahawk and Knife Fighting

[Crow Beads]

Why is the knife when used with a tomahawk most often held in the reverse grip with the blade positioned away from the body? It would seem that this shortens the range of motion. The only formal training I ever had with the knife was a Chinese double-daggers form. My sifu was adamant about using a normal grip. That way you could slash, block by crossing the two blades and have enough range to strike with the point to the body.

 

[crockett]

If I remember my Johnny Ek knife fighting manual throw dirt in the opponent's face and then stick him in the stomach. After that you can finish him off. Slashes to the arms can be used and then finish him off. That reverse grip stuff- no knife fighter would ever use a knife that way.
Indian type dags were probably used for stabbing. I was a "stabber" so when the Bowie knife "slasher" method was introduced I was not a believer but slash wounds are deep and ugly and across the stomach will cause all the inners to fall out, now that's ugly.
BUT.....I'm not sure just how much knife fighting was actually done in the wilderness. I read one or two accounts of an NDN stabbing another NDN from behind with a dag hidden in the sleeve of his capot. I think that was in the Larpenteur book and Clyman speaks of a Bowie being used in California but other than those two accounts knife fighting seems not to have been common or at least written about. Most knife fighting appears to have occurred more in towns along the frontier- like St. Louis and New Orleans. Sort of a drunken brawl situation. There were some mountain men like Antoine Clement, William Drummond Stewart, Lapenteur, etc that speak of carrying big knives so they were there but accounts of knife fights seem rare- at least in the diaries and journals.
Regarding mountain men, if a fighting knife was carried, I believe (that means I'm not really sure) that a double edge dagger type might have been preferred as it was easier to carry that a big Bowie. Nowadays carrying a double edge in certain States creates a legal issue.

 

[biliff]

Don't know anything about knife or tomahawk fighting, but my guess is to keep from impaling your arm on the knife blade when swinging the hawk.

 

[Elnathan]

That reverse grip stuff- no knife fighter would ever use a knife that way.

Actually, every Medieval and Renaissance fighting book, except for George Silver, advocates doing exactly that. I think that the reason why is that they assume a close-quarters brawl or surprise attack instead of a duel or similar situation.. Silver is the exception on both counts - he assumes a duel-type situation, and holds the dagger like a sword.

As for the original question, I am not aware of any evidence that tomahawk fighters used their knife with a reverse-grip, nor for that matter any evidence that use of a knife in the off-hand was common. If someone knows of any, I'd appreciate hearing it.

 

[satx78247]

Pardon me for pointing out that the justifiably famous frontier knife-fighters like JIM BOWIE didn't have access to a "sifu". - Instead, they learned by DOING.
Over time you got better/became very skilled at "close combat" or you met a more skilled fighter & "assumed room temperature" from wounds.

Even in 2014, the US Armed Forces still use the techniques of the American frontier to teach knife-fighting to SM.

yours, satx

 

[LaBonte]

Pardon me for pointing out that the justifiably famous frontier knife-fighters like JIM BOWIE didn't have access to a "sifu". - Instead, they learned by DOING.
Over time you got better/became very skilled at "close combat" or you met a more skilled fighter & "assumed room temperature" from wounds.

Even in 2014, the US Armed Forces still use the techniques of the American frontier to teach knife-fighting to SM.

yours, satx

With all due respect sir but that is not entirely true, there were knife fighting classes/schools in several southern cities (St Louis, Nashville, Memphis and New Orleans to name but four) from the 1820's on into the 1850's. Norm Flayderman's book, "The Bowie Knife, Unsheathing a Legend" (a must have reference for anyone interested in Bowies and the legacy), includes info on them including IIRC some photos of adverts for such schools/classes which were most often associated with a salle des armes (sword fighting schools).
So not all folks of the era learned the rough and tumble style of fighting.

As for the reversed blade - the Japanese use such a hold and it can be used as easily for slashing as stabbing. Also by holding it with the blade along the forearm it can act as a guard.

 

[Crow Beads]

Pardon me for pointing out that the justifiably famous frontier knife-fighters like JIM BOWIE didn't have access to a "sifu". - Instead, they learned by DOING.

yours, satx

You take from every teacher what you can and then you move on...

 

[tenngun]

Drawings from the time show knife out point up. Artistic lisinse? Maybe, I am sure there was not a one way. I learned one way but have never had to draw a weapon on any one. The only time a knife was drawn on me was point up. But that didn't work out well for him.

 

[jethro224]

the reverse grip with the blade positioned away from the body

With a knife held in such a way as this the blade guards the forearm when blocking, you can still punch with the knife hand, the edge can be used to slash on a forward movement of the arm, and stabbing can be done with more force on a rearward/downward arm movement.

 

[smo]

With the reverse grip it would be harder for an opponent to grab the knife possibly. :idunno: Plus as Jethro pointed out you can still punch with that style of grip..... I just have never figured out why anyone would come to a knife fight without a gun. :shake: :wink:

 

[crockett]

Well I suppose a lot of this gets academic. If you start grappling- and that's where a lot of knife fights end up, then a reverse grip might have some use but on the old frontier type knives with the metal pommel/butt- that actually had a purpose- if you started grappling you could strike the opponent in the skull with the pommel. Those Johnny Ek knives I mentioned. They had a full tang that extended a little beyond the handle- the purpose being the same as a pommel- in case you got into a grappling situation.
Now, this is just my opinion but here it goes... I think the fine art of knife fighting in America MIGHT have peaked around the era Jim Bowie had his famous fight. It was the muzzle loading era and the idea of shooting and then having an empty gun- that likely made carrying a fighting knife more essential. Certainly the knives were big fighting knives. I think the knives were superior to what the military carries today (except for some units) but today's knife is smaller as it isn't used as much and toting a big Bowie around would be a lot of weight for something you might never use.
In any event a Bowie would never be held with a reverse grip.
The combination of tomahawk and knife- I don't know about that- where was such mentioned? I know some rifle units in the Continental Army were issued tomahawks if their rifles could not be fitted with a bayonet. I think as late as WWII the US Army bayonet manual still warned of being careful against a man with a tomahawk as he could side step a thrust and use the hawk to hook the rifle and grab/control it.
Intersting subject- I never knew there were knife fighting schools back then. I did read that there was "knife control" in some areas because everyone started carrying a big Bowie knife.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Dunno. :idunno:
Don't care. I just shoot 'em. :wink:
I have heard (and we know how reliable that is) that knife fighting as a 'sport' still exists in Mexico. How do they do it? (if the do)

 

[Rev_William]

Also from what I've seen in a few how to dvd's having the hawk in your right hand you swing this makes your opponent move back and as you step in with the knife you are to close for a trad stab you instead slice with the step thru or reverse stab on the retreat if you miss

 

[crockett]

My view about knife fighting is that both guys often get cut up really bad. Gastly sport, eh?

 

[simeon england]

Howdy!

Meshach Browning, a late 18th early 19th century hunter (44 years in the life of a hunter) reports hunting bear and often using his knife in a fight when a shot was gone, and his dogs were getting the worst of it. One time he held the knife handle with the blade to the outside, and when running past the bear would stab it. He did this multiple times before winning the fight.

I do not recall how old he was at the time, and whether or not it was in the 18th century or early 19th, but seems like the method worked for him with fighting a few bears.

Now, whether bear claws count as knives, is another story . . .

 

[Rifleman1776]

Howdy!

Meshach Browning, a late 18th early 19th century hunter (44 years in the life of a hunter) reports hunting bear and often using his knife in a fight when a shot was gone, and his dogs were getting the worst of it. One time he held the knife handle with the blade to the outside, and when running past the bear would stab it. He did this multiple times before winning the fight.

I do not recall how old he was at the time, and whether or not it was in the 18th century or early 19th, but seems like the method worked for him with fighting a few bears.

Now, whether bear claws count as knives, is another story . . .

Are we going ff ?
Oh, well. At one time Arkansas was known as the Bear State because bear hunting and exporting the products (oil, fur, meat) was a major industry.
I have a copy of an old article written by a bear hunter who (claimed) he only killed the bears with a knife and didn't shoot them. I'm skeeptikal :bull: , but that is what he said. He said his dogs would corner the animal then he would go in with his knife and dispatch the animal.

 

[crockett]

Not too far off topic (I hope)- I never thought about a big knife for hunting but today's hog hunters with dogs often use knives.
Still- that combination knife- tomahawk. I never heard of that before, I thought you would use one or the other but not both.

 

[Crow Beads]

I wasn't aware of this combination until my wife gave me the book The Fighting Tomahawk by Dwight McLemore for Christmas. The techniques can also be seen with Costner's character in the film Patriot and some of the actors in Last of the Mohicans. I'd simply like to learn the techniques for my own personal satisfaction.

 

[Rev_William]

Crowbeads I have both Mclemores book and dvd. If you get a chance pic up the dvd it really helps those drawings make a lot more sense.

 

[crockett]

Thanks- good to know.