I will say this, that I just viewed the History Channels DVD "The Alamo". A great documentary and eye opener on real facts surrounding the Alamo, and the people who defended it! Time well spent!
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The Alamo film
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3 stinky dogs
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I read an artical where it came up that the gun crokett started out with was actuley a percussion rifle that he traded off for a shorter more manageable on horse back rifle.I will find this so I you can read it.The auther also says That there were caps found at the Alamo.
This I have to see! Crokett starting off with a percussion, is well impossible! Caps found at the Alamo? When?
It could be possible, based on the dates. As far as where the caps originated from will stay a mystery.
Again, doubtfull, but possible
3 stinky dogs
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Well I say that maby some old travlers were passing threw and someone dropped a few there.Archiologest have a nasty habit of putting all thees cool facts about this and that but they never explain that the site has been viseted since The battle by folks.It diddent just get populer when they tturned it in to a mesuem.Go to www.erleytexashistorey.com.I forget the link but just click on Weapons and read.
3 stinky dogs
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Here try this link.I http://www.texianlegacy.com/txguide.html .Yhat is the kink as I see it.I dont know how to direct you to it.Ni I dident state it is a fact just pointed out another guy's thaughts on the matter so evry one put your scalping knives away. :front:Here is the link that mentions the caps found in the alamo.If guns were being converted as early as 1826 why would it be impossible? Anyway here is the link I hope http://www.erlytexanhistory.com/livinghistory/tubbsgun.htmlIf that dont work try http:www.erlytexanhistory.com/livinghistory.com/tubbspersona.html .clik on "is that gun real?"
3 stinky dogs
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[/quote]
This I have to see! Crokett starting off with a percussion, is well impossible! Caps found at the Alamo? When?
It could be possible, based on the dates. As far as where the caps originated from will stay a mystery.
Again, doubtfull, but possible [/quote]It is possible but you got to figure that hear you are heading to what for the times may as well as the moon.Would you take a gun that would be hard to keep running to war ? It makes sence the whole idea of a trade as any fighting man knows use what works.I wonder if the caps were easely obtained in 1830-36 Texas?Me I would stick with what I new would work.Just like today.The Milatarey for the most part uses diesel for there vehicles. Diesel is in reguler use all around the world and in most 3rd world country's reguler gas aint.Just like the AK some Spec ops groups choose that weapon because the ammo is evry where but 5.56mm can be hard to find.I bet it was thw same with flint and percussion guns.If you just hunted for leasure then caps are fine.But if you wanted a hard charging fighting gun for wilderness or war I bet the flint lock musket was the weapon of choice for along time.I guess the equivelent of the AK for its time ? :m2c:
This I have to see! Crokett starting off with a percussion, is well impossible! Caps found at the Alamo? When?
It could be possible, based on the dates. As far as where the caps originated from will stay a mystery.
Again, doubtfull, but possible [/quote]It is possible but you got to figure that hear you are heading to what for the times may as well as the moon.Would you take a gun that would be hard to keep running to war ? It makes sence the whole idea of a trade as any fighting man knows use what works.I wonder if the caps were easely obtained in 1830-36 Texas?Me I would stick with what I new would work.Just like today.The Milatarey for the most part uses diesel for there vehicles. Diesel is in reguler use all around the world and in most 3rd world country's reguler gas aint.Just like the AK some Spec ops groups choose that weapon because the ammo is evry where but 5.56mm can be hard to find.I bet it was thw same with flint and percussion guns.If you just hunted for leasure then caps are fine.But if you wanted a hard charging fighting gun for wilderness or war I bet the flint lock musket was the weapon of choice for along time.I guess the equivelent of the AK for its time ? :m2c:
JOHN L. HINNANT
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Greetings Mule Brain,
As a Native Texan and long time student of the Alamo History and Muzzle loading arms, I can tell you for sure that it would not be impossible for caplock arms to have been at the Alamo or David Crockett to have had one,
As a matter of historical fact, the rifle presented to Colonel Crockett in 1835 was a caplock with patent breech and back action lock. This is the one he named his "Pretty new Betsy". It was left behind along with "old Betsy" when he journyed to Texas. New Betsy is in a Tennessee musuem and is pictured in THE MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE, Then and Now by Walter Cline.
Old Betsy is in the Alamo having been donated by the Crockett descendents. Another Crockett rifle that came to Texas with the Congressman was traded to a young Andy Thomas by David Crockett himself. It too is on display at the Alamo. having been donated by Andy Thomas descendents.
Also keep in mind that by 1836, practically all, if not all Hawken rifles were caplock. The Modena Hawken for example was made and purchased in 1831, and it was a patent breech
caplock from the beginning.
So to say it was impossible for caplocks to have been at the 1836 Alamo battle would not be an accurate assessment. In fact, I would find it impossible to believe that some caplocks were not at the Alamo.
For those who are interested these questions have been discussed in depth on the website www.thealamofilm.com
Best regards,
Jihn L. Hinnant
As a Native Texan and long time student of the Alamo History and Muzzle loading arms, I can tell you for sure that it would not be impossible for caplock arms to have been at the Alamo or David Crockett to have had one,
As a matter of historical fact, the rifle presented to Colonel Crockett in 1835 was a caplock with patent breech and back action lock. This is the one he named his "Pretty new Betsy". It was left behind along with "old Betsy" when he journyed to Texas. New Betsy is in a Tennessee musuem and is pictured in THE MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE, Then and Now by Walter Cline.
Old Betsy is in the Alamo having been donated by the Crockett descendents. Another Crockett rifle that came to Texas with the Congressman was traded to a young Andy Thomas by David Crockett himself. It too is on display at the Alamo. having been donated by Andy Thomas descendents.
Also keep in mind that by 1836, practically all, if not all Hawken rifles were caplock. The Modena Hawken for example was made and purchased in 1831, and it was a patent breech
caplock from the beginning.
So to say it was impossible for caplocks to have been at the 1836 Alamo battle would not be an accurate assessment. In fact, I would find it impossible to believe that some caplocks were not at the Alamo.
For those who are interested these questions have been discussed in depth on the website www.thealamofilm.com
Best regards,
Jihn L. Hinnant
3 stinky dogs
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Could the Andy thomas rifle be the one in the article I read ? I dont think that it was out of the question weather caplocks were used but would it have been common ? then as now people have prefrences .Flint muskets were cheap and easey to get for sure But how about caps?Texas from all I have read was (and some say still is)a diffrent planet.So I wonder how maney cap locks were switched back to flint after awhile on the Texas fronter?Also A period correct Hawken now a days (the one's I have found) run from $750.00-$900.00+ And back in the day they may have been pricy to the avrage joe headed south to whip some Mexican Army butt.Impossible ? no not at all but I would bet that flint guns were used more then caps in Texas over caps for quite a while.Good to see another Texas guy !
JOHN L. HINNANT
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Greetings 3 Stinky Dogs,
There are 4 authenicated Crockett rifles in existence today and a possible 5th one, so I am not sure which one you read about.
From the historical research it would appear that Colonel Crockett carried 2 rifles into the ALAMO. Neither of these two rifles have ever been identified.
Concerning the question about the style of clothing and hats wore by the actors in the 2004 ALAMO movie,it is period correct and quite correct for the movie.
I doubt that many if any caplock rifles were coverted back to flintlock just because it was Texas. Percussion caps would not have been any more difficult to obtain in Texas than in the Rocky Mountains.
While a Hawken rifle was an expensive investment, a number of young men coming to Texas were from well-to-do families in the United States and and purchase of an expensive rifle from any gunsmith would not have been a problem. It is doubtful if a person from that social status would have had anything to do with a cheap rifle unless forced to by unforeseeable circumstances. In fact a Hawken might have been a bit too crude for some of these men.
And oh yes Texas is another world (not another planet). After all we were the only state to have been a Republic first. We were a sovereign country for 10 years. A number of us native Texans are still not sure statehood is all that great of an idea.
Best regards,
John L. Hinnant
There are 4 authenicated Crockett rifles in existence today and a possible 5th one, so I am not sure which one you read about.
From the historical research it would appear that Colonel Crockett carried 2 rifles into the ALAMO. Neither of these two rifles have ever been identified.
Concerning the question about the style of clothing and hats wore by the actors in the 2004 ALAMO movie,it is period correct and quite correct for the movie.
I doubt that many if any caplock rifles were coverted back to flintlock just because it was Texas. Percussion caps would not have been any more difficult to obtain in Texas than in the Rocky Mountains.
While a Hawken rifle was an expensive investment, a number of young men coming to Texas were from well-to-do families in the United States and and purchase of an expensive rifle from any gunsmith would not have been a problem. It is doubtful if a person from that social status would have had anything to do with a cheap rifle unless forced to by unforeseeable circumstances. In fact a Hawken might have been a bit too crude for some of these men.
And oh yes Texas is another world (not another planet). After all we were the only state to have been a Republic first. We were a sovereign country for 10 years. A number of us native Texans are still not sure statehood is all that great of an idea.
Best regards,
John L. Hinnant
3 stinky dogs
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That is why I love it here this is a great state.Maby the guy's who came braught there fine cap guns but if you think about it how diffrent were the men and woman back then from us?and I have read where a good maney of the people in texas at that time diddent even have guns.Alot of thees guy's may have had experiance in the army or malita where they came from.Just like people who could care less about weapons to day could identify and probubly function an m-16 today I think it would be the same for the settlers then.And I beleave that when the caps ran out or the lock busted alot of cap guns got reconverted or the gun was replaced by an old reliable bessevry one would know how to operate it and they were verry availeble.Its what I would have done.And I have done some reading about the rocky MTN. fur trade I aint an expert just a super newby but it seems th me more men and business went to the rocky's but there to it seems like alot of guy's caried flint guns to.I wont state any thing as a fact unless i was there .To me reading what I have about the arms situation It makes sence to me.But I wont say cap guns at the Alamo was Impossible I just beleave that the majoriety were flint Besses.Hope to see you around and I am a member at the site you mentioned.Good site and goot to meet you or Yall!Oh one more thing hows that thread on the cuss words used at the Alamo doing ?I still crack up when I think about that.
JOHN L. HINNANT
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Greetings 3 Stinky Dogs,
I would not say no caplocks were ever converted to a flint lock, but only that it would have been rare. Yes the majority of arms at the ALAMO were probably flintlock, but other factors have to be considered when discussing the flintlock vs. caplock situation.
The mid 1830's were a transition time for the caplock technology. It was a superior system. Shooters who could not master shooting a flintlock could become an adequate marksman with a caplock.
Even without the Mexican Army threat after the revolution, Texas was a dangerous place to live with the Indian and Bandido threat. Settlers coming to Texas without a gun soon found it necessary to obtain one.
It was some time before Texas settlers begin a western movement much past San Antonio or the Southern costal colonies.
Once the revolution was over, Texas became very attractive to settlers, and Texas had an advantage that other places, like Oregon did not have; seaports easily reached from the United States. Not only could settlers reach Texas without months of wagon travel, but large quantities of goods could be shipped in a relative short period of time. Particularly When the major US point of export was New O'Leans.
In combination with the population lingering in the eastern part of Texas, supply and sale of goods was not the problem it was in supplying US territory west of the Mississippi and the Missouri rivers.
Take a look at a US map. Just across the Sabine is Arkansas and Louisanna: already settled areas with commerce and trading places. The demand for goods was there, and the supply was in place. These goods would have encluded gun parts. Along with this thought is the fact that a blacksmith/gunsmith was a necessity to any settlement; probably the most valuable member in a community; more so than a lawyer.
This alone made Texas a desireable place to relocate. It just did not seem to be as remote as other places West. There was practically no settlement west of a North-South line running through San Antonio-Dallas/Ft. Worth until after the Civil War. Fredricksburg and Castroville were just about the only exceptions.
Only when settlers begin moving into the Western part of the state did Texas begin to seem remote. I just returned from a class reunion at a little town 30 miles South of Odessa. Traveling down I10 West past Kerrville, that part of Texas still seems remote and far away from my home in San Antonio.
Well, for what it is worth, those are my thoughts and views on why flintlock arms did not last long in Texas. I could go on with more. like the introduction of the Colt Patterson Revolver into Texas in 1836-37, but this will have to do for now.
Best regards,
John L. Hinnant
I would not say no caplocks were ever converted to a flint lock, but only that it would have been rare. Yes the majority of arms at the ALAMO were probably flintlock, but other factors have to be considered when discussing the flintlock vs. caplock situation.
The mid 1830's were a transition time for the caplock technology. It was a superior system. Shooters who could not master shooting a flintlock could become an adequate marksman with a caplock.
Even without the Mexican Army threat after the revolution, Texas was a dangerous place to live with the Indian and Bandido threat. Settlers coming to Texas without a gun soon found it necessary to obtain one.
It was some time before Texas settlers begin a western movement much past San Antonio or the Southern costal colonies.
Once the revolution was over, Texas became very attractive to settlers, and Texas had an advantage that other places, like Oregon did not have; seaports easily reached from the United States. Not only could settlers reach Texas without months of wagon travel, but large quantities of goods could be shipped in a relative short period of time. Particularly When the major US point of export was New O'Leans.
In combination with the population lingering in the eastern part of Texas, supply and sale of goods was not the problem it was in supplying US territory west of the Mississippi and the Missouri rivers.
Take a look at a US map. Just across the Sabine is Arkansas and Louisanna: already settled areas with commerce and trading places. The demand for goods was there, and the supply was in place. These goods would have encluded gun parts. Along with this thought is the fact that a blacksmith/gunsmith was a necessity to any settlement; probably the most valuable member in a community; more so than a lawyer.
This alone made Texas a desireable place to relocate. It just did not seem to be as remote as other places West. There was practically no settlement west of a North-South line running through San Antonio-Dallas/Ft. Worth until after the Civil War. Fredricksburg and Castroville were just about the only exceptions.
Only when settlers begin moving into the Western part of the state did Texas begin to seem remote. I just returned from a class reunion at a little town 30 miles South of Odessa. Traveling down I10 West past Kerrville, that part of Texas still seems remote and far away from my home in San Antonio.
Well, for what it is worth, those are my thoughts and views on why flintlock arms did not last long in Texas. I could go on with more. like the introduction of the Colt Patterson Revolver into Texas in 1836-37, but this will have to do for now.
Best regards,
John L. Hinnant
3 stinky dogs
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Hey I recognise you from the Alamo site ! good to see you all here ! I havent been back to the alamo film in a while but it is a good place and I recomend it to any one who is looking.I have been looking for a some Texas reenactors in the Houston,Clear Lake south Houston area to hang out with and lern the roaps.I am working on gathering a kit and building a personna for events.And when I can get hold of some one I will be joining the Texas Army (or starting the process).I am not native Texan by birth (borne in Long beach Cali) But I have lived here off and on since 1980 0r since I was about 6 or 7 years old.Good to see you guys here and I look forward to your to hearing what you have to say.Hope to see you around.
3 stinky dogs
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Say ,was it not the Texas rangers that Proved the Paterson worth as a top of the line weapon ? And as far as texas go's It still is a desireble place to re locate to.I know because I have done it sevral times.I have my gripes but they arnt any diffrent then they were anywhere else I guess.
I think the Texas navy was the first to use the paterson pistol, but not 100% sure.
Thomas
Thomas
JOHN L. HINNANT
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Greetings 3 Stinky Dogs and Thomas.
The Texas Navy officially adopted the Colt Patterson, but it is debatable how many Texas Rangers actually bought them (or traded for them) with personal funds before the Texas Navy had them.
I do not believe the Texas Rangers ever offically adopted any weapon until after the Civil War, and then the State of Texas furnished a single shot Springfield rifle only after Reconstruction ended in 1876.
The Rangers were disbanded during the Reconstruction Days and did not exist for this ten year period. Military Law supplanted civil law during this time.
Even today the Rangers have a great deal of latitude in selecting their personal arms.
Best regards,
John L. Hinnant
The Texas Navy officially adopted the Colt Patterson, but it is debatable how many Texas Rangers actually bought them (or traded for them) with personal funds before the Texas Navy had them.
I do not believe the Texas Rangers ever offically adopted any weapon until after the Civil War, and then the State of Texas furnished a single shot Springfield rifle only after Reconstruction ended in 1876.
The Rangers were disbanded during the Reconstruction Days and did not exist for this ten year period. Military Law supplanted civil law during this time.
Even today the Rangers have a great deal of latitude in selecting their personal arms.
Best regards,
John L. Hinnant
I believe the earliest mention of percussion caps in the U.S. was made by James Audebon (sp) the famous bird painter, who saw them in New Orleans in 1819 or 1821. New Orleans was on the edge of "The Frontier" in 1819/21 similar to St. Louis. There is a school of thought that claims that percussion caps may have had their first major exposure on the frontier rather than back East because people on or near the frontier would be more likely to be looking for the "better mouse trap." This idea was first brought to me by the late John Barsotti who worked for the Ohio Historical Society and was a consummate Historian/Shooter while I was working in the Ohio Village Gunshop in the late '70s.
Just another thought.
Regards, Dave
Just another thought.
Regards, Dave
I'm on that board as well. There are plenty of Tx Rev reenactors in the Houston area. I'm now one of them, but I'm concentrating on the Mexican side of things for now. I grew up in Clear Lake, but moved here out west after college in Waco.
