Swiss FFFG VS Goex FFFG VS Pyrodex P

[mec]

Some light preliminaries this morning with the 60 Army, A Dragoon and a Lyman .50. Swiss has the rep for being hotter than other black powders as well as cleaner and more consistent. I haven't debunked any of those claims.

The 60 Army- on different days with different conditions has clocked 855/37fps spread with Goex FFFG and: 1047/116 with Pyrodex P. Bullet was the 140 gr 454 RB. Most of my Pyrodex P loads show extreme spread in the 50-70- fps range with this revolver.

The Swiss FFFG ran 1040/ 69

The Dragoon holds 50 grains of black with the ball right at the front of the chamber- more than likely, ballistic wonks haven't changed much and the early shooters would stuff as much powder in the chambers as possible just like modern reloaders.
50 grais of Goex FFFG has averaged 890/37 for me. I haven't loaded the volume equivalent of Pyrodex P, but have loaded 45 gr vol/equiv. for 1157/55 fps.

Fifty Grains of Swiss averaged 1217/51

Best guess is that the Swiss is pretty closely equivalent to Pyrodex P in these two revolvers and clearly outruns Goex FFFG.

My .50 Lyman Pistol and the.490 Hornady Ball with 40 gr Goex FFFG gets 884/24. Pyrodex P does 934/72.

the Swiss averaged 1041/48. Again the Swiss left the Goex equivalent in the dust and this time, stomped all over the pyrodex P load too.

All of the above was based on six rounds over the chronograph at about 70f for the swiss. Other powders were shot under unrecorded weather conditions but do not seem to vary a whole lot over time.

I'll be checking other revolvers with fairly maximal swiss loads but I think some trends show up here and are much like a number of shooters have reported. I haven't done enough to say anything about any difference in extreme spreads though black generally does show more consistency than the substitute in that regard.

 

A 45 ball moving at 1200 fps is nothing to sneeze at... :imo:

 

[Rat]

Get hit with that ball going 1200fps and you'll never sneeze again. Might wheeze once or twice.

:redface:

Rat

 

[mec]

Check out the swiss in a couple more guns. From a Uberti Walker, initial shots with .454 Ball over 60 grains of fffg swift clocked in the high 1200s. 55 grains put the first three shots from the cylinder out in the middle 1100s. The chambers of this revolver measure about .450 and a ring of lead shaved from the ball on seating. Nevertheless, velocities began to drop off and we confirmed that both of these loads were enertia pulling the balls. We have not seen this with other loads in the Walker or with Swiss in my Dragoon.

My 61 Navy will average 966 with 22/ gr/Goex with a .375 ball showing a 66 fps spread. 22 grains equivalent by volume of Pyrodex P did 1046/36
and the Swiss averaged 1070/37

The Lepage averages 868/ 104 with 20 grains Goex and a .433 patched ball. Pyrodex at the same volume does 949/110. Twenty Grains of Swiss did 1005 /62.

The Swiss is no more nor less dirty or prone to fouling than Goex ffg.

 

[mec]

From Remington and LeMat. 44s

or: http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/swissremlemt.jpg

I was sitting on the ground using my knees for a rest and concentrating more on getting rounds over the chronograph than into the target. Nevertheless, the remington put the 454 balls over 35 grains of Swiss fffg into a 2x4" group at 40 yards. the lee 200 Conical over 22 grains expanded the group to five or six inches.

 

[montanadan]

Mec-Another great post,this is going to be slightly off-topic.I never shot a LeMat,what are they like.Does Pietta make them?I would like to hear(read) your thoughts..I know you are busy,but when you live in WYO.,you just do not get see everything.. Thanks..Respectfully Montanadan

 

[mec]

I've got one and had another that the burglars gonifed off with. The present one gets lower velocity than the first. Both were well made with the chambers lining up and produce good accuracy. The revolver function is very reliable with no cap frag hang-ups. Bore and chamber diameter is .448-.449 and the .451 balls load best.

The hammer- throw for the shot barrel is oblique and short. May have been reliable with old fulminate primers but not with cci or remington. For any kind of reliability, I had to stone the caps so thin they were almost cut through.

I can't fault Pietta on either one of these. The design itself has a few weeknesses. The little barrel clamp for the loading lever is flimsy. the ram rod that fits inside the hollow loading lever will fly out on the ground unless wedged- (dental floss). It is necessary to tighten the loading lever screw after each loading to keep it from standing straight up under recoil. The cavalry model has a flip latch at the bottom front of the frame to lock the barrel in place. It will drop down unless closed over a paper wedge.
The sideplate screw requires a special spanner driver which I made from a screwdriver head. It is put on under heavy and unnecessary impact {both revolvers}. Once removed, you can bounce the sideplate off like a Smith and Wesson and the very robust lockwork is easy to remove/replace.
These have been coming into the country since 1985 but nobody keeps parts on this side of the atlantic. VTI got a full spare parts order for me in two months and Taylor filled a smaller order for me in the same amount of time. There are some loading lever parts at Dixie. VTI has toyed with the idea of stocking the parts but this seems to have fallen through. All in all, it's more of a novelty than a steady shooter- though it might see more general use if Pietta would be forthcoming with after sale support. I've seen it in Cold Mountain, and one of the Sellick/ Lamour movies.

or: http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/shotbblfired.jpg

25 yard group:
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/Lemat25targ.jpg

Parts:
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/lematspoff.jpg

Shot- load of .31 ball and another of #8. The ball is good to about 29 feet and the birdshot throws killing patterns to about 40 ft.
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/lematshot.jpg

http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Muzzleloaders_and_Blackpowder/Lematshot8.JPG

 

[montanadan]

Mec-As usual another great post,that shooting session looked more like an adventure in field repairing,thus ending my curiosty..Respectfully Montanadan

 

[mec]

I'm sure it was a better learning experience than plopping down the gelt they want for one of these. I had to do it for THE BOOK.
For Science!~

 

[rayb]

and how is "the book" coming? anxiously awaiting the televised release/book signing party.... ::


seriously, hope it is going well.

rayb

 

[PaulN/KS]

MEC,as usual you bring us the info in a clear and entertaining way.Looking forward to the book.

 

[mec]

Making a lot of progress. Just don't know what sort of stumbling blocks I'll run into with the printing

 

[CoyoteJoe]

In the "Cold Mountain" book the author makes the point that "Inman's" lemat was not one of the early models made in Belgum but the good one made in Birmingham England!
Too bad, you must have gotten one of those Belgian things!
I heard one cowboy shooter suggest their next shoot should include a Lemat throwing contest.
:crackup: :crackup:

 

[mec]

Hell. I got one of the Italian Things. Guess which one is third from the top. The Belgian experience didn't work out for Lemat at all. Somewhat resembled recent global efforts in the replica business. Still, Pietta did well enough with these to show they can make a good revolver if they try. Most of the problems seem to come from the basic design rather than their execution of it. They managed to run the blockades with about 2800 of these so, they didn't get the R&D and refinement the colts and remingtons did. LeMat did stay in business until 1885 making some cartridge versions. The story goes that French Devil's Island guards liked them. This was probably because the shot barrel allowed them to mutilate prisoners better. One guy even sent me a picture of a rare LeMat carbine - revolving cylinder and shot barrel.

Unkind of the cowboy shooters to suggest that! Actually, I wouldn't pick a LeMat for a primary shooter but it's held up very well through my experimentation.