SturdyTradition pocket knife

[gfimwalle]

I've carried the same Case stockman pocket knife daily since 1985. She did spend a night on a log in the woods after cleaning a rabbit once.

I have found a couple knives over the years, one along a shoreline fishing, another next to our mail box that apparently fell off a truck going by. But have never lost one.

Back in the day, when I was interviewing college kids for seasonal positions, after the formal interview I would ask the potential prospects if they were carrying a knife. If so could I see it ? Always thought you could tell a lot about these youngsters by, if they had one, what type, and it's condition. Was it dull, or had it been used as a pry bar, I thought gave some indication of what I could expect if we were to turn them loose with expensive equipment down the road.

 

[BullRunBear]

Sean, Like others here I carry a SAK (Super Tinker in my case) and a Kershaw for easy one handed opening. But for your specs the only ones that come to mind are a full size Case Sodbuster or a larger Opinel. I believe the Opinel mechanism with the locking collar existed pre-1840. The Sodbuster is a simple design that at least doesn't look modern.

If you don't need more than a sturdy blade, either of these might do.

Jeff

 

[bluecow]

for 40 years ive carried off and on a scharde walden case 136 utility/"hawkbill". great knife that has always been able to do what i needed a pocket knife to do. my understanding is that these type of knives where around before the civil war and where popular at that time. you can find them on auction sites if you look around some.

 

[Stophel]

. I believe the Opinel mechanism with the locking collar existed pre-1840.

The Opinel lock was invented in 1955. :wink:

 

[BullRunBear]

Oooops! Could have sworn I came across a reference to the twist collar from early American times. Now I can't find it. Well, it's not the first time I've been wrong today. Sorry for any misinformation. :redface:

Jeff

 

[Stophel]

I have a couple of old large Saber brand (or is it Sabre?) Barlowe knives. Heavy duty things and very snappy. My intention is to take one and use the blade and spring and make myself a reasonable-enough facsimile of an 18th century folding knife. I'll get around to doing it someday...

 

[phoenix511]

I'll second the comment on the Opinel folder: modest price (maybe $15), nice shape handle, blade thin, good for slicing, not so good for heavier work.

For a reenactor, you can make a passable, but not perfect, example of an 18th penny knife by sanding off the Opinel cartouche on the handle (the stamped cartouche on the blade is too deep to remove without compromising the blade), stain a darker color, distress the lock ring and blade. Lock ring stamped "No8 virobloc brevete"

If questioned about authenticity, my reply is "Opinel was ahead of its time."

 

[Stophel]

Some representative examples of 18th century folding knives:

Very typical English "Barlowe" knives:

http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/scripts/viewobject.php?Lang=1&section=196&accessnumber=M1676&imageID=300871&pageMulti=1

A large English knife with shorter bolsters "made in 1758, but dated 1792 on the handle"

A Barlow knife, post 1800, with applied bolsters, and a thumbnail notch (earlier knives generally had no notch, other than small penknives)

This is the "soldier's knife", for lack of another term, and along with Barlow type knives, these are found in large quantities in 18th century American archaeological sites:

Some of these can be downright huge, with 5 or 6" blades!

 

[Stophel]

For French folding knives in North America, all I know about are "friction folders". I have seen no spring-back French knives of this period in America so far (and few even in France, actually). These knives and the blades for them are found in large quantities in Canada, Louisiana, along the Mississippi, the Great Lakes area, etc. Wherever French trading went on. There are several blade designs, long clip, sheepsfoot, spear, etc. The blade "stops" on the handle with the little tab on the back of the blade. Handles seem to be usually horn, but apparently sometimes bone (antler? possible, but I haven't seen it yet... I'm still looking).

This type of knife is sometimes called a "Jambette" or "Piemontais knife". The French like to still make traditional type friction knives, but so far, I have only seen other types still being made, and not this specific style.

Made at St. Etienne:

Another typical horn-handled French knife

Blade found at the "Grand Portage" site in Minnesota, by Lake Superior.

The now-popular long-tang friction folders I have NOT been able to find historically anywhere. The best I have seen offered is someone saying "why, these types of knives were used by European farmers 400 years ago", which means nothing.

The turned-handle so-called "penny knife" with the hump-back, nearly triangular blade I have found to actually be a traditional Austrian farmer's work knife, called a "Taschenfeitel", and while it is "traditional", that doesn't mean it goes back to the 18th century (though it may, I have been unable to find out just how old they really are. I would expect mid-19th century at most.). At any rate, neat as they may be, they are simply not found in North America in the 18th century, according to all I have been able to see. :wink:

 

[flattail]

:hatsoff: Stophel, thank you for the wonderful pictures of period knives. Most that I have found are too small (too far from the knife) for me to get much information from. Wish I could replicate the "jambette" blade, with the shoulder stop (for lack of a better descriptor).
Thanks again, :bow:
Ed

 

[PaulN/KS]

The late Mike Ameling made a French friction folder that was a replica from a shipwreck off the coast of Texas. I believe it was from the late 1600's or early 1700's. It is a small and simple blade with a folded metal, his were steel, handle.
I do not carry mine for fear of losing it.

 

[44-henry]

I have made several of the so called "Penny Knives" over the years. I am actually finishing one up now. I have never seen any definitive proof that these knives were around in the Revolutionary War period, but I don't really have too much trouble believing that they were, the Opinel knives mentioned earlier are a more modern descendant. Simple, inexpensive, and effective, are sure signs of an effective product which this style of knife is. Here are a couple pictures of one I produced.

If you are looking for one of this style Wick makes some of the nicest that I have seen.

 

[LRB]

Thanks, but what you have there is mighty fine.

 

[Rifleman1776]

On pages 173-175 of the Collectors Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution are several examples of folders (penny knives?) from that period. There is also an example of what could be the inspiration for the Opinel. I know there are those here who believe their personal knowledge is superior to the encyclopedia. But, the authors footnote their findings and it is an excellent, and, IMHO, reliable guide to items that were available during that period. Whether or not it is "definitive" is up to the individual to decide for himself.

Edit: nearly forgot: Stophel, thanks for posting those pics. Very interesting and informative. :redface:

 

[crockett]

To all, I'll add what little I may know.
On the Penny Knife- I think all these knives may be termed penny knives but for clarity I usually think of the type shown by Alexander L. Johnson- with the iron collar- as a penny knife and those without the collar a friction folder.
First, there were so many makers from a variety of countries that I don't think anything can be categorized as black and white. The twist collar lock, even if Opinel patented the design in the 1850's doesn't mean some earlier model did or did not exist- unfortunately it falls into the "might have been" category.
The museum at Valley Forge had some of the George Neumann collection. As I understand it, some of the collection is "representative" of what was and not original. In any event, they have two penny knives with the iron collars. About 7 years ago I was dealing with the then curator and he did some detail measuring and photos and sent me the information.
I was making penny knife collars from iron pipe (too thick) and electrical conduit. This material is so strong that it retains its shape. From the information I received the original collars were much thinner and were wrapped around the front of the handle, there had to be a split for the blade so the ends of the strip of metal were bent 90 degrees and tucked into the handle slot to hold the sheet metal collar in place. The tang of the blade then was pushed in place and kept the crimped in ends in place- hope I've explained this accurately.
The slot in the penny knife- they were flat on the bottom. In some instances this slot may have been exposed on the top of the handle in the most forward area but then the metal collar covered it up. The slot itself seems unique. I was sawing my slots and then widening with parallel sides. The Valley Forge slots were V shaped. How they created this V shape I have no idea.
The particular knife Al. L. J. posted- that looks very similar to the William Clark knife that is at the Ft. Clatsop, WA. It is therefore "mountain Man" era.
On the "jambette" I thought that meant "hambone" and referred to the handle shape on a friction folder.
The last image that Stophel posted on the blade found at Grand Portage with the "button" pretty much on top of the tang- to the best of my knowledge that was the most common style. On the handles, some had a forward/downward slant on the handle and when the blade was closed into the slot the button was almost against the handle- the benefit being there was no long tang extension sticking out- as is seen today on a lot of reproduction friction folders. This extension- for a while I questioned whether such was or was not PC. Apparently it is pc and was referred to as the Dauphine design and was seen in Louisiana and was of French origin.
This whole subject- I find fascinating. We have a lot of knowledge on the firearms but the knives- sometimes harder to get good information. As I said, I at least have had trouble getting good information. In the Carl P. Russell book it says the William Clark knife had a spring. When I talked to the curator in Washington- no spring. Russell was incorrect. On the Neumann knives, once again he never claimed all were original but folks assume that. It sure can get confusing.
Anyone with information- please share.
Finally, there is the North America/Europe issue. I've seen a European penny knife with metal collar that was square and brass and the folder almost looked like a modern applied bolster but that was Europe- no information anything like that ever got to North America.

 

[44-henry]

Interesting information, regarding the slot cut in the handle being more of a v-shape I have always figured that they were likely sawed and than scraped to shape, but that is only a guess. Some of the first ones of these I sawed the slot by hand and than scraped them to fit, now I use a special fixture I made and cut the slot in my milling machine with the aide of a fiber wheel. Here are a couple pictures of my arrangement. The handle I am cutting is really just a scrap that I use for setup, my real blank is pictured mounted, but un-slotted in the next picture.

Not probably the most historically correct method of cutting slots, but it works well.

On the first few knives that I made the ferrules were seamless tubing that I turned down a bit on the lathe, but as was mentioned they were very solid and probably not all that authentic. Now I use very thin .020-.032 cold rolled mild steel and wrap and swage it around the end of the handle. The ears wrap around and go inside the handle slot and this is what the knife blade bears on. I think this works a lot better and helps prevent the inevitable wear that would occur if the blade was bearing strictly on the wood handle.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Neat idea for slot cutting. Simple and effective. I like simple. :grin:
Mind if I steal :shocked2: ....uh...borrow the idea? :wink:

 

[44-henry]

Thanks your welcome too it, not an original idea by any means, pretty much just a miniature checkering cradle. My first one was made out of maple and it worked fine, but the aluminum one here is definitely more rigid.

 

[44-henry]

Had another thought on why the handle slots are tapered. Sometimes I have found that it is easier to heat the blade up (before it is heat treated) and press it into an undersized saw cut. If done quickly (and carefully) it doesn't noticeably char the wood, at least nothing that finishing won't fix. It is certainly a quick method of finishing a slot to size and the heated blade tends to follow the path of least resistance so it stays on center in the pre-cut groove. Not saying that this is the way that they would have done them, but since the blade is tapered it would make some sense.

 

[44-henry]

I know that showing the construction belongs in another section, but I figured I would show what these look like before they are finally put together. If it is not appropriate here I can start a thread in the craftsman section. These things are pretty simple, this one just needs the blade fine tuned and it will be ready to installed, spotted and drilled. You can see the socket where the ferrule will wrap around. It doesn't take much material and is a fairly simple process which would have helped the makers produce these in large quantities. You might be able to see that the front of the slot is thicker than the rest to accommodate the double thickness of the ferrule material.

This one is made of rosewood, but I am guessing the originals were largely plain beech or maple.