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Slotting pin lugs

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Crow#21957

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Read a post about slotting lugs or trunions the one guy called them. The whole post was about smooth bore accuracy. So do wedges make for better accuracy in a smooth bore? I'm getting ready to build my fusil and want to build it in a way to get the best round ball accuracy. My #1 wish is to eb eventually get decent shot patterns. It will be used for squirrel and turkey. The round ball will just be a fun thing to try.
 
Read a post about slotting lugs or trunions the one guy called them. The whole post was about smooth bore accuracy. So do wedges make for better accuracy in a smooth bore? I'm getting ready to build my fusil and want to build it in a way to get the best round ball accuracy. My #1 wish is to eb eventually get decent shot patterns. It will be used for squirrel and turkey. The round ball will just be a fun thing to try.
Whether you use wedges or pins, you should slot the tenons. It is difficult to beat physics. Wood and steel expand and contract at different rates. No slots and the wood stock as it expands and contracts will be pushing or pulling on the barrel if there is not clearance (aka a slot) in the tenon, allowing the pin or wedge to move freely with the stock as the stock expands and contracts over time.

If it matters to you, pins are probably more correct in fusil.
 
So after I drill for the pins just elongate the holes toward the breechvand toward the muzzel ? So a little each direction. And roughly how much.... 1/8 each way or more ore less? Thankyou very much for your knowledge and help.
 
The notion of needing to slot the pin holes is a fallacy. It most likely originating when old stocks split from the wood being too green when built and drying out. Wood does expand and contract with humidity, but does so across the grain far more than with it.

As for barrel expansion, I did a little research and found a 42" barrel heating 100°F will increase by about 0.027" over the entire length. Anchored at the tang and pinned in 3 places and the thermal expansion of a barrel between any two points is so small as to be insignificant.
 
The notion of needing to slot the pin holes is a fallacy. It most likely originating when old stocks split from the wood being too green when built and drying out. Wood does expand and contract with humidity, but does so across the grain far more than with it.

As for barrel expansion, I did a little research and found a 42" barrel heating 100°F will increase by about 0.027" over the entire length. Anchored at the tang and pinned in 3 places and the thermal expansion of a barrel between any two points is so small as to be insignificant.
Interesting research. How much does the wood stock length change in the same environment?

I have one more question for you. Below is a photograph of an unfired, CVA factory made Kentucky Rifle with a two piece stock stored 40 plus years in a humidity controlled environment (Heat/AC plus dehumidifier in the safe). I had assumed that the stock length shrunk over time, but your research says that isn’t possible. If I remove the pins from the assembly the two piece stock ieasily slides back together (I did provide clearance between the stock and the nose cap which has screws holding it to the barrel), but with the pins in place it’s impossible to close the gap, as the gun was when new. The question for you is, how do I tighten or close up the gap between the two pieces of the stock without slotting the holes in the tenons the pins pass through? My solution was going to be slotting the holes in the tenons so the stock would free to move over time without opening up a gap between the two pieces. But your research says this is not necessary, so what solution do you suggest?
1651889428024.jpeg
 
Interesting research. How much does the wood stock length change in the same environment?

I have one more question for you. Below is a photograph of an unfired, CVA factory made Kentucky Rifle with a two piece stock stored 40 plus years in a humidity controlled environment (Heat/AC plus dehumidifier in the safe). I had assumed that the stock length shrunk over time, but your research says that isn’t possible. If I remove the pins from the assembly the two piece stock ieasily slides back together (I did provide clearance between the stock and the nose cap which has screws holding it to the barrel), but with the pins in place it’s impossible to close the gap, as the gun was when new. The question for you is, how do I tighten or close up the gap between the two pieces of the stock without slotting the holes in the tenons the pins pass through? My solution was going to be slotting the holes in the tenons so the stock would free to move over time without opening up a gap between the two pieces. But your research says this is not necessary, so what solution do you suggest?
1651889428024.jpeg
Just how dehumidified is your safe?

I never said it wasn't possible, but more the result of wood being too green. That could have been the case here.
 
Interesting research. How much does the wood stock length change in the same environment?

I have one more question for you. Below is a photograph of an unfired, CVA factory made Kentucky Rifle with a two piece stock stored 40 plus years in a humidity controlled environment (Heat/AC plus dehumidifier in the safe). I had assumed that the stock length shrunk over time, but your research says that isn’t possible. If I remove the pins from the assembly the two piece stock ieasily slides back together (I did provide clearance between the stock and the nose cap which has screws holding it to the barrel), but with the pins in place it’s impossible to close the gap, as the gun was when new. The question for you is, how do I tighten or close up the gap between the two pieces of the stock without slotting the holes in the tenons the pins pass through? My solution was going to be slotting the holes in the tenons so the stock would free to move over time without opening up a gap between the two pieces. But your research says this is not necessary, so what solution do you suggest?
1651889428024.jpeg
If the gap is consistent. I would find a piece of sheet brass and make another spacer. You already have a templet.
And pin or screw it to the other piece of forearm.
Or get a thicker piece of brass and make a thicker spacer and replace the one that's on it.
And leave your pins and lugs alone.
Just my 2 cents.
 
Just how dehumidified is your safe?

I never said it wasn't possible, but more the result of wood being too green. That could have been the case here.
Safe is inside the house with heating and A/C. Safe has a Golden Rod Dehumidifier, which really just keeps the inside of the safe and it contents warmer than the outside air to avoid condensation from forming.

The notion of needing to slot the pin holes is a fallacy.
So again I’ll ask, what is your solution if ‘needing to slot the pin holes is a fallacy’? I doubt the stock wood was green when CVA made the stock, as the finish on the wood is just fine, and the gap has slowly grown over the past 40 plus years.

Shumway noted some original old guns with no slots in their tenons had fore-stocks pulled apart by up to an 1/8”. Odd that the old builders would not slot the tenons only if they were using green wood.
 
If the gap is consistent. I would find a piece of sheet brass and make another spacer. You already have a templet.
And pin or screw it to the other piece of forearm.
Or get a thicker piece of brass and make a thicker spacer and replace the one that's on it.
And leave your pins and lugs alone.
Just my 2 cents.
The gap has continued to grow over the years. The reason for the slots in the tenons is to allow the stock to shrink and swell without putting stress on the barrel. The two piece stock just shows the amount of movement that the slots would have to allow for in a single piece full length stock.

More than one gun with a vertical stringing problem has been corrected by slotting the tenons. Without the slots the tension between the stock and the barrel as the barrel heats up from use and/or hot sun can change the POI.
 
The notion of needing to slot the pin holes is a fallacy

Apparently not completely fallacy as seen in @SDSmlf 's post. There will be movement of the barrel and the wood. That Kentucky stock probably did have enough moisture content to shrink that much. If he took it to South Florida and stood it in a corner for a few months that gap might disappear. Who knows where a gun is going to end up?
 
I've always checked the lugs to make sure they were slotted first thing with a "new or new to me" gun. If one's not slotted I fix it right up.
 
None of the guns I own are slotted and I haven’t had any issues…. So far.

I don’t understand how slotting the tenon/ under lug has anything too do with keeping the wood from splitting..

The pins are still snug in the wood, are they not?
If not, what keeps them from falling out?

Would the pins not cause a split in the thin fore stock , more so than than the tenons

My pins, music wire ( I assume) bend fairly easy..
Would that not solve any worries with wood expansion?

Slotting the tenon length wise , wouldn’t stop the wood from splitting if the fore stock swells would it?
It looks like too me for that to be effective, the tenon would need too be slotted in both directions….+ like so..🤷‍♂️

I would be more concerned with barrel movement from recoil causing splitting than wood expansion or swelling.
Especially with today means of storing or guns…ie gun safes, dehumidifier rods and such.

But, I’ve been wrong before…
 
@smo I agree with you. I do see validity in the argument for slotting, but I'm just not sure on this. I have one pinned rifle that came slotted. My Pedersoli didn't, and my Kibler SMR had to be drilled and I didn't slot it. I do understand that the Woodsrunner comes with the tenons pre-slotted. My others all have wedges. I haven't run into a problem that I could attribute to not having slots yet. I'll keep an open mind on this and see where it leads.
 
My thought is even with wedged barrels, the wedges are tight..If not, they’re lost unless they’re captured.
 
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