Should we allow peeps in the general contests I run?

[Loyalist Dave]

Carbon 6 said:
Read between the lines and you'll discover why it's only ten and not 30.

I'm not tracking. what do you mean?

Replies to the OP included those that contend the requirement to not use anything other than open, iron sights, i.e. a peep rear sight, is what is keeping participation numbers down, because there are those that don't even try to compete as their eyes have too much trouble with iron sights.

LD

 

[smo]

Where’s the two contest button?

Too be fair.... I think you would need too
score open sight vs peep sights separately ..

But I haven’t shot in the postal matches in awhile, so I’m not going to vote, just give an opinion.

It would be interesting too see which group out shot the other however....

Thanks for carrying on with the contest,
I hope too get back into them again soon!

I’m with you with whatever your decision my be.

I hope to get back into the postal matches soon.

Thanks again for all you do supporting the matches.

 

[renegadehunter]

I'll throw my opinion in the hat for what it's worth. I'm one of those guys that only has one rifle...well, in shooting condition anyway (I've got to find the time to get the old H&A underhammer shooting). I do enjoy shooting it at targets and experimenting with different components...but the rifle's main purpose is hunting. Due to that I recently put on a fiber-optic ghost ring style sight, as I prefer that setup over the factory sights. My groups haven't changed one bit on paper when shooting from the bench since taking the old sights off. With that being said, I'm also aware that my sights don't qualify. I'm not going to take the effort to put my old sights back on, sight them in, and then swap them again before hunting season.
But from what I've read, it's still fine to participate in the postal shoots if one wants? My score just wouldn't be considered...but I'd still be able to see how I did in comparison to others addicted to this BP thing. I'm perfectly fine with that. This is a traditional group after all.
I do think there'd be value in having two classes as a test. You'd see if peeps do in fact average higher scores, and also if the participation rate was much higher or not if they were allowed. I realize that FO sights probably wouldn't ever be allowed, and am fine with that.
I suspect that no matter what kind of sight, it'll be the folks that spend the time to really dial in the best load combo and get their sights hitting POA that will consistently score well.

 

[Carbon 6]

If the competition becomes one of "equipment" then those with the fanciest and best toys will win.

When the playing field is equal, it becomes a contest between men and their skill.

There are ways to design shoots to level the playing field for people with handicaps or other restrictions without creating a clear advantage. Isn't that what running a contest is all about? Keeping it fair for everyone so that no one person has a clear advantage over the others.

Arguably, I understand there are design difficulties unique to postal matches.

 

[45man]

I never had a problem with opens until I got cataracts. I got them removed and have new lenses in my eyes. I can now see again at 81 years old. But listen up. I shot IHMSA long ago and we could not put aftermarket sights on a Ruger yet we had to shoot against guns with better sights like the Freedom and Dan Wessons. Yet we did good with the cheaper Ruger sights and I won state with the Ruger .44 and also the state with the Ruger .22. It is your vision first and some old guns were made for young eyes with little tiny sights. People did not live long then. 40 was ancient.
So now I agree with better sights. Yes I could focus on both sights and the targets back then but we get old. Nobody ever beat me with a flint lock either and I brought home many groceries. I never shot less then first or second place. When I drove in to a shoot everyone groaned. I shot silhouette BP and won the shoots. I finished early and when we set targets I put up steel chickens at 200 meters and shot them off hand for fun. Long gone now with age. Some gremlin shakes my guns. Better sights do not help a poor shooter in any case but you should help the older person. Peeps are not better at all but might help an older person. Go for it because you will make more friends.

 

[renegadehunter]

So, would it be ok for me to participate and just not have my score considered in the contest with my FO ghost ring setup? I would just make sure to note on my target what my sights are.

 

[Adui]

So, would it be ok for me to participate and just not have my score considered in the contest with my FO ghost ring setup? I would just make sure to note on my target what my sights are.

Yes. Just Mark your Target so I know

 

[Grenadier1758]

I agree. Mark your targets so Adui can have a data base to make future decisions.

 

[Robby]

My opinion is that those sort of diopter attachments are to compensate for poor eyesight. They are not attached to the gun. Unless the contest is who has the best eyesight, My opinion would be that should always be allowed. I do the punched hole in electrical tape thing. As long as there is enough light outside, it makes everything in focus. Has nothing to do with aligning the sights, I still have to do that part on my own.

So, peep sights align themselves?
Robby

 

[Zonie]

So, peep sights align themselves?
Robby

Actually, you could say they do align themselves. Not by themselves obviously but when someone sights thru the hole in a peep sight, the brain automatically lines up the eye with the center of the hole. Lining up the front sight and the target with what he sees thru the hole are the only things the shooter has to do.

The eye and brain do not align themselves with the image of a open sight on the other hand.

After reading some of the other comments, I'm beginning to like the idea that peep sights should be allowed if the shooter writes something like, 'Used peep sight" or just, "Peep sights" on the target.

I know, back when I had cataracts in both eyes I switched my factory made rifles over to peep sights. Without them I couldn't see the sights or the target well enough to shoot any kind of a group.
With the peep sights installed I still had a problem using them. It seems, when I looked thru the rear sight I could see three front sights and three targets.
I usually chose the upper right sight and target to concentrate on and by doing so, I could shoot a fairly good group.

Anyway, a local black powder club held a turkey shoot just before Thanksgiving so I drove 30 miles to it. When I got there I found that it was an 'open sight only" shoot. That ruled out my Pedersoli Tryon, the most accurate factory made gun I have.
Faced with this, I used one of my percussion Pecatonica River long rifles that I had built. It has open sights so it was legal.
Of course, sighting in a very fuzzy rear sight and an almost invisible front sight with a fuzzy dark blob of a bulls eye on the target, I was basically just going thru the motions of shooting. As I recall, out of 3 shots, I did hit the paper twice.

Anyway, let's try this "Peep sight" thing for a while. If Adui thinks it works out and it allows many of our members with eye problems to have fun, he can change the rules for the shoot in his posts about new matches.

 

[Robby]

Yes I agree Zonie, having shot thousands of rounds through peeps, they do tend to align pretty naturally. Most of these shoots are off hand and from what I have seen, sight alignment is not the problem for most shooters, holding steady from the ankles to the top knot as well as all their appendages is . You could give most people scopes and they still would have a problem holding steady. For off hand shooting I don't see a peep sight as any real advantage.
Robby

 

[Juice Jaws]

After reading all the post up to now, I am changing my thinking and vote to let peep sights in. Robby makes a good point, we are shooting off hand and open or peep sights or even a scope doesn't really matter with the end of your barrel going around and around.

 

[smo]

I totally agree, but still didn’t vote..

 

[Adui]

Well I gave the poll a week, and its only been 3 days, but the running tally is 72% for and 28% against. It will now read 73% / 27% because I voted for just so I could see if it allows one to change ones vote. It does, but that doesn't mean those of you who have changed your minds are going to use the option (or even know you could)

For those interested, I'm changing the rules of the March shoot to allow peeps for score. One MUST mark the target peep sight used so I know, as I intend to run some figures over the next three or four months to see if there is a trend. If Peeps do turn out to be an unfair advantage I'll switch it up and run a second division, assuming there is enough participation to warrant such a thing.

 

[45man]

Peeps are not an advantage if the gun waves around and trigger control is lacking. They will aid an older shooter. As long as everyone has a chance to be equal, go for it. You will bring back more shooters. My shooting life was against restrictions imposed. Buy a more expensive gun and shoot better always made us angry. You buy a gun with Bomar or Micro sights when I have a Ruger, is it fair? It is just money that you afford. I out shot every Freedom on the line because I could see better. Should I have been forced to wear filthy glasses? Did any range restrict glasses like the yellow for dim light?
Don't mark targets for peeps, let all use them. Believe me you will get more shooters and friends. I shot production and could only use what the company put on the guns. IT SUCKS when poor.

 

[45man]

You are a good person and can make all happy. Even the first scopes as long as the barrel did not make a better shooter. Good eyes will still out shoot a scope with opens. Imagine the love and I will love your decision so be kind.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Yes I agree Zonie, having shot thousands of rounds through peeps, they do tend to align pretty naturally. Most of these shoots are off hand and from what I have seen, sight alignment is not the problem for most shooters, holding steady from the ankles to the top knot as well as all their appendages is . You could give most people scopes and they still would have a problem holding steady. For off hand shooting I don't see a peep sight as any real advantage.
Robby

I recall, years back, reading, maybe in Muzzle Blasts, about an ml club that challenged a modern rifle club to a match. The modern guys could use their bolties, scopes, slings, whatever. The ml guys shot what they normally shot. Only restriction was all shooting had to be standing up offhand. The ml'ers whooped the bolties sumptin' fierce. I believe many of us shoot more and practice. Bolties like to use bench rest most (all?) of the time.

 

[russellshaffer]

I was out with a rimfire that will group 5/8 at 50 meters from a bench - it does have a small scope. I tried it at 25 offhand and the only advantage to the scope was that I could see better how bad I was missing. I think I actually do better with open sights on a muzzleloader. Maybe I am better off not seeing such a fine aiming point?

 

[Trent Grove]

It doesn't matter what gun you shoot or what sights you have on that gun. If the competition is standing offhand you still have to hold the rifle still to shoot accurately! If you narrow your shooters to only a specific group then you will only shoot with a specific group. I shoot both peep and open sights. I have won with both and I have lost with both. Know and enjoy the equipment you want to use, find a club or shooting event that enjoys the sport of shooting and not just what you shoot.

People put TOO much emphasis on what is historically correct, period correct, what is not allowed, what is allowed. If the match is just a fun match and not structured in anyway then "who cares" get out an shoot!

 

[Barrie Dale]

At my club my shooting team all use Peep sights and so do I as well. WE have both a 25 yard range and a 50 yard range for strictly Black Powder only.