Search for Trade Gun

[MikeEasy]

Not having found a suitable (light, single-shot 20 ga smoothbore flintlock) gun for less than $400 as discussed in an earlier post, I have scrounged and meanwhile searched for something more pricey. The current candidates are:
:

• a Pedersoli "Lewis & Clark Fowler (),
• a "Pedersoli Flintlock 20ga Shotgun" (),
• Pedersoli "Indian Trade Musket" at Dixie Gun Works website.

All are actually versions of Pedersoli's "Indian Trade Musket" I believe (that is, the "fowler" is not really a fowler but a trade gun). Can anyone provide feedback on the suitability of these for hunting (usually with shot) and for shooting competition (round ball). The latter apparently requires some degree of historical correctness and, since these guns appear to have been available for a long time, whether they qualify or not should be well-established, but I do not know how they fare.

 

[Alden]

Might wanna use Search Function first here Mike. Love mine. It's a generic trade gun as described. Haters who bought parts-guns will be here soon with a micrometer... You might check with whomever you shoot against and ensure they are acceptable (though I'm confident they will be).

 

[MikeEasy]

Might wanna use Search Function first here Mike. Love mine. It's a generic trade gun as described. Haters who bought parts-guns will be here soon with a micrometer... You might check with whomever you shoot against and ensure they are acceptable (though I'm confident they will be).

I have searched in these forums and that is why I ask. I wanted to touch base with those familiar with the Pedersoli version. Those like you who own and use one would be most likely to be able to provide useful feedback. Sounds like you're happy with yours, which puts a vote on the + side. :hatsoff:

About Historical Correctness

The specification of "historically correctness" seems to vary greatly, from:

• the existence of an exact model of a gun, to
• a list of specific features and dimensions (e.g., barrel length, 38"-48") from models that existed over a period of time to,
• specific individual parts of a gun that might render it NOT a trade gun(e.g., a sling).

Unless someone can provide a clear and defensible definition of what is historically correct in a particular class of gun, then any criteria are a crapshoot and would be virtually unenforceable in a court of law, which is where these questions always ends up anyway unless some authoritative organization steps in and takes hold of the situation. BTW I don't think the micrometer was invented until nearly the the 20th century so it mightn't be historically correct to use one in evaluating a trade gun! :hmm:

Perhaps part of another discussion (but not this one) could be a solid answer to the question "What defines a historically correct trade gun for the purpose of target shooting competitions"? I have found no clear definition, although perhaps one exists. A worthwhile result would be an answer that could stand the test of time, along with, say, a checklist allowing one to check off individual attributes and measurements of a candidate gun, score each as a part of the whole and then sum the total, with all candidates scoring 70% or above (for example) being considered "historically correct" trade guns.

 

[MikeEasy]

Just a note:

the first two guns I listed, the "Pedersoli Lewis & Clark Fowler" and "Pedersoli Flintlock 20ga Shotgun" are currently up for sale on a very popular (possibly the most popular) internet gun auction site. I had previously included the auction ID numbers above but a moderator has apparently deleted them, rendering the above listings less useful. You can search that auction site using the text descriptions above to see the guns I am considering.

Moderator:

is there a problem with providing a link or even an ID to this gun auction site? I found no warning in the FAQ. Did I miss something?

The FAQs do state:

"Do not post items for sale or trade. This includes links to items on eBay or "good deals" on web sites."

but I am not selling these items, I am considering buying them! And there are thousands of links on these forums to commercial products, e.g., links to DGW number about 1,500:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q="dixiegunworks.com"+site:muzzleloadingforum.com

Finally, the FAQ states:

"Asking the members to give a fair market value appraisal for an item you own or wish to purchase is permitted."(italics mine)

And that is exactly what I want here.

 

[Wes/Tex]

You might want to check with our old pal Laffindog here who's site is http://www.northstarwest.com/

Early an late models, Chief's grade and otehr goodies. He does finished, "in-the-white" or parts. Jump in at your own skill level or desires. Won't fine much better. :wink:

 

[No Deer]

About Historical Correctness

The specification of "historically correctness" seems to vary greatly, from:

• the existence of an exact model of a gun, to
• a list of specific features and dimensions (e.g., barrel length, 38"-48") from models that existed over a period of time to,
• specific individual parts of a gun that might render it NOT a trade gun(e.g., a sling).

I participate in a Trade Gun Round Robin each year from January to May. This Round Robin has been in existence for 24 years. This is the definition of a trade gun that they agreed upon when they started:

A trade gun is defined as a flintlock smoothbore ”“ 54 caliber or larger, with no rear site above the plane of the barrel and no set-triggers
No optics attached or detached. That includes the diopters and iris dots that attach to the lens of your glasses.


You can also look up the NMLRA rules for a definition used in their competitions, which is accepted by a lot of clubs for their shoots.

 

[Luke MacGillie]

When it comes to smoothbores, no where is the disconnect between what is permitted in competition shooting vice what the historical record more evident.

The fact that rear sights are not allowed in the competitions is what has kept anyone from producing a proper early "Type G"/Carolina gun. Those guns will forever be a custom gun, despite their being very common throughout the English sphere of influence prior to the 1770's.

Since the OP's desires are just shooting and hunting and not volunteer museum work, any actual discussion on the correctness of the guns he is looking at is a moot point.

But then again he might start shooting, then decide he wants to attend a reenactment and his choice of gun might be what keeps him from passing the jury.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Quit fussing and get what you can or want and go make smoke :thumbsup:

B.

 

[spudnut]

I like them if I had the money Id buy one

 

[spudnut]

they are acceptable for hunting,trade gun matches, and about any rondy you would like to attend

 

[MikeEasy]

You might want to check with our old pal Laffindog here who's site is http://www.northstarwest.com/

Criminey, those are fine-looking trade guns!:shocked2: They're about 33% more costly than the auctioned Pedersolis (of course the auctions aren't over yet and the prices will go up), which would call for more scrounging yet on my part. But, jeez, those are nice.

 

[Zonie]

Perhaps you missed Forum Rule #33 which says,
"Do not post links to classified ads or auction items (yes, this includes the name of the domain and the item number)." ?

The reason posting links to auction sites is against the rules is because after a period of time has passed the auction sites remove the item.

This makes the link worthless so the Topic and the discussions in it become of little use to our members.

 

[Alden]

Ooops -- forget what I said Mike. This apparently can't be a trade gun...

 

[Luke MacGillie]

Ooops -- forget what I said Mike. This apparently can't be a trade gun...

Just like this cant be a Lambourgini...... http://www.extreme-sportscars.com/murci/index.html

Both the Pedersoli and kit cars might be considered a reasonable facsimile to some, they are, how shall we say it, either pretentious or having delusions of grandeur.

 

[No Deer]

When it comes to smoothbores, no where is the disconnect between what is permitted in competition shooting vice what the historical record more evident.

The fact that rear sights are not allowed in the competitions is what has kept anyone from producing a proper early "Type G"/Carolina gun. Those guns will forever be a custom gun, despite their being very common throughout the English sphere of influence prior to the 1770's.

Since the OP's desires are just shooting and hunting and not volunteer museum work, any actual discussion on the correctness of the guns he is looking at is a moot point.

But then again he might start shooting, then decide he wants to attend a reenactment and his choice of gun might be what keeps him from passing the jury.

If you notice in the OPs post, he requested a definition of what constitutes a trade gun eligible to shoot in competitions. I provided a definition of what is required for the trade gun shoots I go to.

 

[MikeEasy]

Perhaps you missed Forum Rule #33 which says,
"Do not post links to classified ads or auction items (yes, this includes the name of the domain and the item number)." ?

The reason posting links to auction sites is against the rules is because after a period of time has passed the auction sites remove the item.

This makes the link worthless so the Topic and the discussions in it become of little use to our members.

Yes, I did miss it.

Before posting I had reviewed the "Basic Rules" listed in the FAQs which are similar but not identical to the "Board Rules" (accessible through the URL titled "Forum Rules" on these forums' top navigation bar). In particular the FAQ's "Basic Rules" did not include "Board Rule" #33 and referenced neither classifieds nor auctions.

Perhaps one set of rules would be better than two. Also it might be useful if one of the three terms "Basic Rules", "Forum Rules", or "Board Rules" was established as standard terminology on this website and the other two discarded for clarity's sake.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[MikeEasy]

About Historical Correctness

...
I participate in a Trade Gun Round Robin each year from January to May. This Round Robin has been in existence for 24 years. This is the definition of a trade gun that they agreed upon when they started:

A trade gun is defined as a flintlock smoothbore ”“ 54 caliber or larger, with no rear site above the plane of the barrel and no set-triggers
No optics attached or detached. That includes the diopters and iris dots that attach to the lens of your glasses.


You can also look up the NMLRA rules for a definition used in their competitions, which is accepted by a lot of clubs for their shoots.

Thank you. It seems you answered all my questions. :hatsoff:

The Pedersolis fit your Trade Gun Round Robin rules. And per your suggestion I looked up the NMLRA rules and the Pedersolis seem to qualify for two classifications:

• "5650”“TRADE GUN or FOWLER (a.k.a. SMOOTHBORE)”“A traditional offhand hunting firearm originally intended to shoot either round ball or shot. Flintlock only. No set triggers. 28ga. (54 caliber) minimum. No rear sight above the plane of the barrel."
• "9050”“SMOOTHBORE”“A traditional style long gun originally intended to shoot either round ball or shot. The smoothbore must be of 28 ga. (.54 caliber) or larger. No rear sight above the plane of the barrel, no set triggers. Smoothbores that are acceptable in the primitive smoothbore matches include musket, fowler and trade gun."

So the Pedersolis are, for all shooting and hunting intents and purposes, trade guns. OTOH it appears, as one other poster somewhere said, that a water pipe strapped to a 2"x 4" with hose clamps and a flint lock might also qualify as a trade gun. I hope therefore to gain membership in a society remarkably inclusive and broad-minded. :grin:

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Here is the problem with historically correct guns. We know that Fowlers and Trade Guns were built to certain patterns. There are many books that show these patterns in great detail.

What we do not know is how these guns were modified by their owners. Barrels could have been shortened, parts could have been changed out, stocks could have been replaced etc. Some changes are time frame obvious like a lock converted from flint to percussion, other such a barrel shortening could have happened at any time. In general there were enough of these unique guns to warrant mention in the above mentioned books

Such guns are a nemesis to some reenactors because they prefer to have documented proof that such a change. Unfortunately, modification by an individual is rarely recorded. When I run into this I simple tell them it started out as a documented piece, I grew tired of it and modified it. Of course this only works if the modifications are period correct.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

MikeEasy,

I have not shot a smoothbore match against a pipe strapped to a 2X4. But I have shot against a 54 cal. bull barreled half stocks with tuned flintlocks and modern trigger assembles. They required a mallet to start the patch ball. I was using my historically correct Trade Gun.

These are very good shooters with purpose built guns that meet the rules criteria.

Is it fun? definately. Is it fair? Well you be the judge.

Also it is no big deal to tap out a dovetailed rear sight if you wish to compete in the no rear sight matches.

 

[thatoneguy82]

MikeEasy,

Also it is no big deal to tap out a dovetailed rear sight if you wish to compete in the no rear sight matches.

You can only tap that sight out om your type C or G so many times before it won't stay for anything. Unfortunately there are no allowances made for trade guns that were designed with a rear sight.