• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Rifle equivalent to Trade Muskets?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Canuck Bob

40 Cal.
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
161
Reaction score
0
I'm just enquiring about what were the rifled counterparts of fur trade muskets. Is there evidence of actual trade rifles as well as muskets? If I pursue a correct muzzleloader it will be most likely an HBC trade style in either ignition system. I'm thinking of British territory types post merger of the HBC and NWC and establishment of the border.

I almost bought a North Star West LH Chief's musket a few years ago as a build. Do I ever regret stalling the purchase! The only thing that held me back was the smoothbore.

It seems logical that there must have been rifles at least for those of European origins or Employees.
 
Trade guns were made from about 1620 to 1900 and were intended for trade to native peoples....So, the rifled counterpart could "in theory" be any rifle made before 1900. Though not specifically designated....There is much history of natives acquiring better weapons...as General Custer discovered.
 
Thanks, the searching has revealed really interesting and abundant info from both sides of the border. I will invest in a couple of books on the subject.

I was very surprised with how long flintlocks were traded, well into the late 1800's. The length seemed to shorten late in the production period to a reported 30". There is a country of supply issue around the border it seems. Leman is a beautiful trade rifle but the HBC supplied British muskets after merging with the North West Co.. Researchers reference rifles but focus on the smoothbore. Barnett is a producer that shows up in the later 1800's often.
 
After the revolution the USA wanted to set up trade with Indian tribes. Most westren forts were established as factories or trading post. The government contracted with some gunmakers to make a trade rifle. Later after the government got out of the trade the fur complies continued to buy American made “London fusils “ and trade rifles. Many of the Leman rifles were even fitted with the same ramrod pipes as he used on his fusils. Unlike the fusils that pretty much all looked the same trade rifles often varied in form sans a set pattern.
 
It took awhile to research but trade rifles seem to be an American effort. Begs the question is there a traceable link from American trade rifles and the rise of the Plains and Mountain rifles of the west. It seems the late era muzzleloaders from the future Canadian region traded smoothbores almost exclusively.

How proven were LH trade or muzzleloader rifles generally? North Star West used to claim their LH Chief's musket was patterned on a LH historical model. I remember being convinced it was true.

One thing is certain Trade guns were the central weapon that opened Canada.
 
Hi,
Henry Tatum and before him, William Grice, all produced British-made rifles for the indian trade in America. The Grice rifle looked like a well made PA long rifle but stocked in walnut. The Tatum guns were styled in the fashion of late flint era English sporting guns. Some were full stocked and some half stocked. They were routinely very well made. You can see pictures of these rifles in Dewitt Bailey's book "British Flintlock Military Rifles".

dave
 
Elnathan said:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/269/2/BOOK-RAI

This book will answer all those questions.

I will note that there are no rifled variants of the North West Gun, if that is what you are asking. Rifles had very different styling.


Thanks for pointing out that book. I'll have to add it to my library.

But I must say I was startled to read the following in its description: "Includes detailed, color photographs of dozens of American gun builders, such as; Henry Leman, C. Gumph, J.J. Henry, Jacob Dickert, and others..."
 
The late flint English Sporting Rifle is a favorite of mine as well. Chambers version is an amazing rifle IMO.

I've been researching all day and have found some pics of Canadian Gunsmith's rifles. I don't have a discerning or educated eye but they sure look like American Longrifles. I have a local museum with many Canadian produced muzzleloaders in their collection. I'll visit next week I hope.
 
Hi,
Chambers English rifle kit is a mid-18th century gun, not a late flint era rifle. It is actually based on a rifle made by modern maker, Bob Harn, which was supposed to be similar to an original by William Turvey. The late flint era Tatum rifles look more like the Pedersoli Mortimer rifle but much better balanced.

dave
 
Canuck Bob said:
It took awhile to research but trade rifles seem to be an American effort. Begs the question is there a traceable link from American trade rifles and the rise of the Plains and Mountain rifles of the west. It seems the late era muzzleloaders from the future Canadian region traded smoothbores almost exclusively.
Most rifles traded to Indians were made in America, but not all. Sometime before the American Revolution, trade rifles had reached a level of popularity with the Indians, that trade companies started having copies of an early Lancaster rifle made in England.

A number of these English made Lancaster trade rifles have survived. Unfortunately, not much period documentation about them has been found. De Witt Bailey provides a little.

De Witt Bailey said:
British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740-1840[/i]] As mentioned earlier, most of the rifles carried by American Indians in the period 1755-1778, whether or not in British Service, were of local American manufacture, and will be indistinguishable from those made for the ordinary commercial trade. That some rifles were imported from England for the Indian trade prior to 1775 is also clear, but the only details thus far to come to light are those concerning the Ohio Company's dozen rifles at Rock Creek in 1757, with 48-inch barrels and iron furniture...Between 1778 and 1783, it is equally clear that the origin of rifles carried by the Indians shifted from America to England.

Baily goes on to discuss the history of the gun making firm started by Richard Wilson and makes mention of invoices dating to 1781 where the British government purchased 312 rifles from the firm of Wilson & Co. that were intended for the Indian allies of the British during the AWI.

The invoices describe three different types of rifles:

108 Best Rifle Guns with brass boxes moulds & cases---53/6
156 Best Rifle Guns wood boxes moulds & cases---52/6
48 Rifle Guns wood boxes moulds & cases---50/-

George Shumway wrote a series of articles on these "English Pattern Trade Rifles" beginning in the February 1982 issue of Buckskin Report.

English_Pattern_Trade_Rifles_1.jpg


It's unsure where these English trade rifles were shipped prior to the AWI, but it is clear that they found their way to the tribes in western New England, in the Great Lakes Region, and in the Ohio Valley. They could have been imported through Montreal, Albany, and/or Philadelphia. Some may have gone to the south through Charleston. Some tribes served as middlemen and traded European goods, including guns, to other tribes further west and north.

The style of English trade rifle changed towards the end of the 18th century and early 19th century. The early patterns like the first three in the illustration above had wide butt plates, a cheekpiece with a straight lower edge, and some decorative carving. They were essentially direct copies of an early Pennsylvania longrifle.

The bottom rifle reflects the general change in longrifles to narrower butt plates. It also has a curved lower edge on the cheekpiece. These rifles have a more military look to them.

Shumway gave this latter pattern the designation of "Type D". Bailey calls it the "Pattern 1813 Indian Contract Rifle" because he found records that the British Board of Ordnance awarded contracts for rifles of this pattern in 1813 to supply British Indian allies during the War of 1812. Private traders were undoubtedly ordering guns of this pattern prior to the War of 1812, though.

The English trade rifle was apparently quite popular with the Indians in the West. When J.J. Henry inquired about the possibility of supplying the American Fur Company with trade rifles in 1825, William Astor wrote back, "we continue to import a part of those [rifles] annually required for our trade but we usually get 100 or 200 manufactured in the United States and it will depend much on both price and quality whether we do not in the future procure the whole quantity in this country." The AFC was importing all their North West guns from England at this time, and the import rifles were surely English-made as well.

By 1828, J.J. Henry had copied the English Type D trade rifle and was selling them to the AFC.

The process had gone full circle. The English copied the Lancaster longrifle before the AWI because of its popularity with the Indians, modified it over the subsequent decades into a truly English form, which Henry in turn copied because of its popularity with the Indians of the 1820's.

I don't believe very many of the North West Company records survive today. We can only speculate that they ordered some English trade rifles, too. The North West Company controlled the trade around the Great Lakes prior to the War of 1812, and pushed it into western Canada and all the way to the Pacific coast. After the War of 1812, they would have been competing directly with American fur companies as well as the Hudson's Bay Company. If Astor's customers wanted English trade rifles, then the North West Company had likely introduced the rifles to those same customers.
 
Back
Top