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Real world accuracy from a CVA
- Thread starter garandman
- Start date
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One ragged hole at 50 yards and 3-4" at best at 100.
(The same as any other if they're tuned properly)
(The same as any other if they're tuned properly)
Lonegun1894
54 Cal.
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When I do my part, I get 3-4" at 100yds, when I dont, I cant get that at 50yds. Work up your loads and your groups will improve. And sometimes, it's the slightest change that will help or hurt you.
Well, I let a co-worker and his 16 yo son shoot mine today. CVA Hawken. Son shot a vertical touching 10X, 10 & 9 three shot group. Dad all three touching in the 9 ring. Shot offhand at 25 yards. They are new to blackpowder but as you can see do know how to shoot. Still, it's a good indicator of typical accuracy. I'm still amazed how well that little 'entry level' rifle can shoot, when I do my part.
hanshi
Cannon
The guns, themselves, are easily capable of 2" groups at 50 yards.
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garandman said:
I bet you could tighten your groups right off by going to a .015 patch if that's a .495 ball your shooting, or .018-.020 patch if it's a .490 ball.
In my experience, and that reported by lots of others here, patches as thing as .010 often tear or "blow" on firing, resulting in poor groups. You might see if you can pick up some of your fired patches (10-15 feet from the muzzle usually) and look them over. A little fraying around the perimeter is normal. Tearing, and general destruction of the patch is a sign of a too-thin patch.
Your patch is too thin and you're using too much of the wrong powder to expect decent groups.garandman said:
I have two older CVA Hawken rifles. Both are .50 caliber. One has a 28-inch barrel and weighs 7½ lbs... and the other, a lighter (6½ lbs) Hawken Carbine with a 24-inch barrel.
All loads and group sizes mentioned here are fired off the bench-rest with an adjustable Lyman rifle rest and a sandbags under the rifle's forearm and 2 sandbags at the toe of the rifle's butt-stock.
The accuracy load for both CVA Hawken rifles is, oddly enough, the same... a .50 caliber swagged Hornady round ball, a .016" washed cotton blue-jean material I use as patching material which squeezes down in the micrometers to .006" with heavy pressure, a .060" vegetable fiber over-powder wad, 47 grains of Swiss FFFg and a standard CCI #11 percussion cap.
I use a bee's wax/Crisco mixture as a lube and spread it on pretty thick.
This load, in either rifle, normally shoots 5-shots into a single, 1/2 to 3/4-inch, inter-locking group at 25 yards and into about a 1½ inch inter-locking 5 shot group at 50 yards.
I think the rifle and load could do better with a younger set of eyes doing the aiming. My 76 year old eyes aren't as good as they once were, especially with iron sights.
Make GOOD smoke... :v
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
All loads and group sizes mentioned here are fired off the bench-rest with an adjustable Lyman rifle rest and a sandbags under the rifle's forearm and 2 sandbags at the toe of the rifle's butt-stock.
The accuracy load for both CVA Hawken rifles is, oddly enough, the same... a .50 caliber swagged Hornady round ball, a .016" washed cotton blue-jean material I use as patching material which squeezes down in the micrometers to .006" with heavy pressure, a .060" vegetable fiber over-powder wad, 47 grains of Swiss FFFg and a standard CCI #11 percussion cap.
I use a bee's wax/Crisco mixture as a lube and spread it on pretty thick.
This load, in either rifle, normally shoots 5-shots into a single, 1/2 to 3/4-inch, inter-locking group at 25 yards and into about a 1½ inch inter-locking 5 shot group at 50 yards.
I think the rifle and load could do better with a younger set of eyes doing the aiming. My 76 year old eyes aren't as good as they once were, especially with iron sights.
Make GOOD smoke... :v
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
Wow....tons of helpful info / replies in this thread. Thanx to all.
I forgot to mention, these groups were fired off hand.
I've got thicker patches, that I will try. (Couldn't find any patches on my range, which suggests to me they are getting lit up.) Could you suggest a better powder / powder charge?
I forgot to mention, these groups were fired off hand.
I've got thicker patches, that I will try. (Couldn't find any patches on my range, which suggests to me they are getting lit up.) Could you suggest a better powder / powder charge?
Rat Trapper
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Could you suggest a better powder / powder charge? [/quote]
Triple Seven or goex black powder.
Triple Seven or goex black powder.
ohio ramrod
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The main thing about this game is that there are so many variables. You need a lot of time to play around with Powder charge, patch thickness, lubes, ball size, over powder wad or not, swabing beteen shots or not . etc. The main thing to remember is to change only one variable at a time going through each variable until you find the one your rifle likes the best. :idunno:
Horizontal Hunter
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The best load for my CVA Mountain Stalker is, a .490 caliber swagged Hornady round ball, a .020" premade and lubed TC patch over 85 grains of Goex FFg and a standard CCI #11 percussion cap.
A TC Maxiball (370g) and a .510 over powder wad over the same powder charge will clover leaf at 40 yards for me from a rest.
Triple Seven or Goex black powder.[/quote]
I had ignition problems with 777 in mine. Real black powder is the best and has the lowest ignition temp.
Bob
A TC Maxiball (370g) and a .510 over powder wad over the same powder charge will clover leaf at 40 yards for me from a rest.
Rat Trapper said:
Triple Seven or Goex black powder.[/quote]
I had ignition problems with 777 in mine. Real black powder is the best and has the lowest ignition temp.
Bob
Lonegun1894
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I would say try different powders, and different granulations (FFg and FFFg), and different amounts of them, with the usual recommendation here being to start at caliber (so 50grs) and work up in 5 gr increments until your groups tighten up to your satisfaction. Another variable that has been mentioned is ball size and patch thickness. Once you figure out what size ball your rifle likes, get a mold in that size and start casting so you have a steady supply out of the same mold so you're not dependent on the manufacturers. Even try different percussion caps to see if that makes a difference, it may or may not. As to powder, and some here will agree while others disagree, all I would say is if at all possible, stick with real black powder, not the substitutes--although I know some here dont have that luxury due to the shipping fees to some areas and other issues, so I dont fault them. But I do know that my rifles shoot much better with the real thing than they do with the wanna-bes. Also, as has been said, only change one thing at a time so you KNOW what caused the difference in groups, good or bad.It takes a little time and experimenting, but once you figure out what your rifle likes, it will be very worth it. With my CVA .50, the good load, that I use for both targets and hunting is 70grs FFFg, a standard CCI cap, and a .017" ticking patch wrapped around a .490" home cast ball. As to patch thickness, .010 blows patches, .015 shoots well, .017 is great, and .020 I cant load without a mallet because it is just too tight.
I've got thicker patches, that I will try. (Couldn't find any patches on my range, which suggests to me they are getting lit up.) Could you suggest a better powder / powder charge? [/quote]
I would start with 50 grains of traditional black powder such as Goex, or 45 grains of 2f Triple 7 and an .015 prelubed patch. Shoot three to five times aiming at the same point on the target, swabbing the bore with an alcohol dampened cleaning patch between shots to return things to being the same everytime. Alcohol will remove the majority of the fouling and evaporate quickly. Good suggestion already given, keep notes of the load, distance to target, patch thickness and even temperature of when you were shooting. Then increase by 5 grains and repeat the process until your groups get nice and tight and you've found your rifles best powder charge. At some point when you go up 5 grains your groups will open up, that's when you back off 5 grains and you're set. Don't adjust your sights or change anything until you have found the best powder amount. I start off with the target at 50 yards when finding the best load for a new rifle just because it is easier to see, realizing that once I find the best load I will then move it out to 100 yards before adjusting or filing the sights. You don't want to zero your sights at 50 yards if you'll be hunting game at 100 yards. Hope this helps and good luck.
I would start with 50 grains of traditional black powder such as Goex, or 45 grains of 2f Triple 7 and an .015 prelubed patch. Shoot three to five times aiming at the same point on the target, swabbing the bore with an alcohol dampened cleaning patch between shots to return things to being the same everytime. Alcohol will remove the majority of the fouling and evaporate quickly. Good suggestion already given, keep notes of the load, distance to target, patch thickness and even temperature of when you were shooting. Then increase by 5 grains and repeat the process until your groups get nice and tight and you've found your rifles best powder charge. At some point when you go up 5 grains your groups will open up, that's when you back off 5 grains and you're set. Don't adjust your sights or change anything until you have found the best powder amount. I start off with the target at 50 yards when finding the best load for a new rifle just because it is easier to see, realizing that once I find the best load I will then move it out to 100 yards before adjusting or filing the sights. You don't want to zero your sights at 50 yards if you'll be hunting game at 100 yards. Hope this helps and good luck.
PS- I do not care for APP and would suggest that you try and find traditional black powder such as Goex, Swiss, Schutzen, etc., or use 2f Triple 7 if you can't easily find those. Keep in mind that T-7 needs to be reduced by 15% over what you'd use of black powder, so 50 grains of Goex equals about 43 grains of T-7.garandman said:
I have had several CVA's over the years and they all did very well with around 1 1/2x the cal in powder, ie a .50 cal uses 75gr +/-. I have found 3f to be the best for me and real BP was better than the pyro I tried, and use a bench to really test the gun and components, watch the patches but if the holes are on top of each other do not worry about some burning, burned patches does not always equall poor accuracy, look at the whole picture and take good notes as you work the loads
I didn't see it mentioned but any of the Pyrodex powders will work in a percussion gun and they are often easier to find and less expensive than some of the others.
As with ALL of these powders mentioned it is very important to thoroughly clean your gun as soon as possible after you've finished shooting.
IMO, it is best to use some sort of support when your first sighting in your gun(s).
You want your shots to reflect what the gun is doing, not how good you are at shooting.
From a rest like a table with your elbow resting on it to support your gun at 25 yards your group size should be less than 1 inch.
Try to find your shot patches. They will tell you a lot about what's happening when the shot is fired.
The outer edges of your patches will always be tattered and frayed but where the ball contacted the bore/rifling you should not see any cuts or burned thru areas.
Happy shooting.
As with ALL of these powders mentioned it is very important to thoroughly clean your gun as soon as possible after you've finished shooting.
IMO, it is best to use some sort of support when your first sighting in your gun(s).
You want your shots to reflect what the gun is doing, not how good you are at shooting.
From a rest like a table with your elbow resting on it to support your gun at 25 yards your group size should be less than 1 inch.
Try to find your shot patches. They will tell you a lot about what's happening when the shot is fired.
The outer edges of your patches will always be tattered and frayed but where the ball contacted the bore/rifling you should not see any cuts or burned thru areas.
Happy shooting.
i just finished a cva hawken kit with a 1-66 twist, and it will shoot RB's into 2' at 50yds. and i have'nt even worked up a load yet! i was using jim shockey gold ff 70grs, i'm using it because i found a deal on it, and it work great for me.
