Range Report: 6 rounds then the lock broke

[Artificer]

As you know, dry firing with a flintlock should be done with a flint or even a wooden dummy flint in place and thus no damage to the lock. A Percussion rifle/gun should have some kind of leather or rubber washer to protect the nipple.

I THINK the OP meant that damage can occur when the cock/hammer is on half cock and the set trigger is pulled. That puts force on the sear nose when it is in the half cock position and could/will damage either the sear nose or half cock notch on the tumbler or both.

Gus

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

I wonder if the sear from one of the Traditions or CVA double barrel shotguns would work for you. CVA made a bunch of shotguns. See if you can locate parts for the left side lock. It could be the same piece. :hmm:

 

[Adui]

I THINK the OP meant that damage can occur when the cock/hammer is on half cock and the set trigger is pulled. That puts force on the sear nose when it is in the half cock position and could/will damage either the sear nose or half cock notch on the tumbler or both.

Gus

Precisely correct, I should have been more specific. My understanding is it is ok to trip the set trigger when the lock is either at full cock, or in the fired position. The only time damage occurs is if the lock is in the half cock position, for the reasons stated in my description. Essentially the set trigger is attempting to do what you would be doing by forcing the trigger to pull while in the half cock position. I'm sure if you squeeze hard enough, something will let go.

 

[Adui]

I wonder if the sear from one of the Traditions or CVA double barrel shotguns would work for you. CVA made a bunch of shotguns. See if you can locate parts for the left side lock. It could be the same piece. :hmm:

The Gun Works in Springfield (recommended by another poster) has a sear from a CVA lock they believe will fit, they measured it and all before telling me that. So, if Traditions fails me I can at least still get the part, and a $10 plus shipping Ill take it!

 

[Zonie]

As a side note, Adui is exactly correct in his description of what can happen to the sear and/or tumbler if the set triggers are used while the lock is in the half cock position.

This is true for both Percussion and Flintlock guns.

The set triggers can be safely tripped thousands of times if the lock is at the "fired" position or at "full cock" but tripping the lock with it set at half cock is asking for problems.

 

[russellshaffer]

About the half cock notch. If the hammer is in the half cock position it is possible to drop the hammer with an extreme trigger pull. It is not a good idea and has to be very hard on the gun. I have done it with a Ruger old style single action without destroying anything but I sure don't recommend it. I heard about this years ago and just had to try it. I might not be strong enough to repeat this dumb trick now.I did do it with an empty gun but I could have damaged it. If it can happen with a Ruger it should be doable with a cap and ball revolver. Can't fix stupid.

 

[Adui]

I don't know the geometry or design of the ROA, but I do know the lock assembly of my rifle. The sear sits far enough into the half cock notch of my lock that there is no way its coming out without either pulling the hammer back to release it or breaking something. The notch is nearly an 8th of an inch deep. That's an 8th of an inch of hardened steel sitting in a notch also of hardened steel. You force it to give and one of the two will break.

 

[Griz44Mag]

About the half cock notch. If the hammer is in the half cock position it is possible to drop the hammer with an extreme trigger pull. It is not a good idea and has to be very hard on the gun. I have done it with a Ruger old style single action without destroying anything but I sure don't recommend it. I heard about this years ago and just had to try it. I might not be strong enough to repeat this dumb trick now.I did do it with an empty gun but I could have damaged it. If it can happen with a Ruger it should be doable with a cap and ball revolver. Can't fix stupid.

I think the conversation is about a rifle lock, which is nothing like a revolver pistol action. Did I miss something????

 

[Rifleman1776]

My understanding is it is ok to trip the set trigger when the lock is either at full cock, or in the fired position.

OK, that has long been my understanding also. I would never dry fire from full cock unless using a plastic dummy cap or wood 'flint'. So, for clarification, dry firing a sett trigger can be a very good practice regimen. Thanks.

 

[Adui]

Adui is happy again. The part from Traditions is $5.95 plus shipping. I'm going to fix her without costing me too awful much. Which means I should have her back up and running in a couple three weeks!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Adui is happy again. The part from Traditions is $5.95 plus shipping. I'm going to fix her without costing me too awful much. Which means I should have her back up and running in a couple three weeks!

:applause: :applause:

 

[Adui]

:hmm: A thought just occurred to me. Even if the part is the exact piece for my lock. The lock its going into has had 20 years or so of wear.

Should I expect to need to stone the sear at all?
Or should I expect it to fit and function without any extra work outside of bolting it in place?

I suppose its all semantics at this point. I get to get the part without breaking the bank. If I have to fit it a little; so long as I take my time and do it right it just means I get to learn more.

 

[necchi]

Should I expect to need to stone the sear at all?

:hmm: , probably, at least do a little on the inside surface that runs against the lock plate.

It should drop-in as far as the screw and position to the tumbler,, but it's still Spanish made for the American market and made cheap.
They usually cast well, and do what little machining is needed,, but they don't take much time to knock off the burrs or polish anything.
Clean-up the places where it rubs up against other parts with a stone,, check the adjustment of that screw in the tumbler for break-point and you should be Golden, :wink:
p.s. My son is a lefty shooter and we have the Traditions St.Louis Hawken 14yrs now,, great gun and a great shooter. It's good to see Traditions can still pander service parts for the lefties,

 

[Adui]

Should I expect to need to stone the sear at all?

:hmm: , probably, at least do a little on the inside surface that runs against the lock plate.

And THAT is why I asked, I wouldn't have even thought about that area!

Clean-up the places where it rubs up against other parts with a stone,, check the adjustment of that screw in the tumbler for break-point and you should be Golden, :wink:

Will do, thanks! :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

Most likely, stoning the tip of the new sear won't accomplish anything and there is a chance that frinkling with it might make things worse.

Just assemble it and try it. It will probably work fine.

If your really curious, you could "paint" the small end of the sear with a black perminate marker. Just one coat of it.

Then, assemble the lock, bring it to full cock and push the sear arm up to release the lock.
Of course you will need to keep your fingers clear of the falling hammer.

Once done, remove the sear and inspect the end of the sear.
If it is good, all or almost all of the black marker ink will be gone.
If only one tiny little area is missing the ink, that could be stoned down a few thousandths of an inch to increase the bearing area against the tumbler notch.
DON'T mess with the tumbler notch.

Have fun.

 

[Artificer]

Terry,

Since it seems you may be new to working on locks, I would offer some advice. If you already know it, then please disregard.

Many people don't understand that most foreign made replica locks do NOT have properly timed lock screws. What I mean by that is if you tighten the lock screws and particularly the sear screw to "snug tight," it will almost always cause binding of the bridle on the sear. So as you tighten that screw keep testing it to see if the sear moves freely and without binding. Since it probably will bind before the screw is tight, when it just begins to bind the sear; stop, unscrew it about a 1/8 turn to where the sear no longer binds and continue to reassemble the lock.

I know Zonie knows this, but I thought it might be prudent to mention it.

Gus

 

[Adui]

Articifer; THANK YOU!! You have both given me advice I didn't know about and explained something to me I wondered about when I took it apart.

Remember I've NEVER dissembled this lock or even worked the screws in it in the 20-22 years I've owned the gun.

Both screws in the bridle were what I would call hand tight. I removed the bridle. free'd the main spring, and then I removed the screw that holds the tumbler to the hammer, it too was hand tight or more.

Now once I saw the sear was the culprit, I took it home, and removed the sear to examine the damage. The sear screw was what I would term ALMOST loose. By that I mean it wasn't wobbling loose but it took no real effort to turn the screw out.

At the time I figured the thing was just loose from never having been tightened over the years.. Now I wonder..

 

[Zonie]

The "almost loose, finger tight" torque on the sear screw is just about perfect.

It must be tight enough to keep it from wobbling or coming loose from vibration and to keep the bridle against the side of the sear but loose enough to allow the sear to easily move.

Hard to describe but when you get it right, you'll know it.

 

[Artificer]

Articifer; THANK YOU!! You have both given me advice I didn't know about and explained something to me I wondered about when I took it apart.

Remember I've NEVER dissembled this lock or even worked the screws in it in the 20-22 years I've owned the gun.

Both screws in the bridle were what I would call hand tight. I removed the bridle. free'd the main spring, and then I removed the screw that holds the tumbler to the hammer, it too was hand tight or more.

Now once I saw the sear was the culprit, I took it home, and removed the sear to examine the damage. The sear screw was what I would term ALMOST loose. By that I mean it wasn't wobbling loose but it took no real effort to turn the screw out.

At the time I figured the thing was just loose from never having been tightened over the years.. Now I wonder..

Bottom line, it just would cost too much to correctly "time" the sear screw so it can be tightened down snug and not bind the sear for a production gun. I have little doubt the way your sear screw was originally fit, it was a little loose for that reason and not because it loosened up over the years.

OK, other things to look for on a replacement sear and that is if it drags or binds on the lock plate on either side of the "bolster" or metal surrounding the area where the sear screw goes through the sear. Ideally, the sear should just contact the lock plate on the bottom of that bolster area and you should just be able to see a little light under the sear on each side of the bolster - but that is not how it sometimes works out. It is not extremely common where the sear drags on either side of the bolster, but it can happen.

What I like to do is take a good machinist's rule or something with a good FLAT edge and lay the bottom of the sear on it to see where the bottom of the sear contacts the flat edge. If you see light under the bolster area, then you will probably need to take a little metal off the front or back BOTTOM of the sear (or both) so the sear won't bind. I am only talking about taking off few thousandths of an inch, normally, but I've seen sears where more had to be taken off one or both sides of the bottom of the sear. BTW, you don't have to worry about going through the case hardening on either side of the bolster on the bottom of the sear, as long as you stay away from taking metal off the bottom of the bolster area on the sear, which will remain hardened and act as a bearing point.

I normally take the metal off the bottom of the sear where needed with either a medium India stone or even a carbide flat needle file, but you don't have to have either to do this. You can do it by wrapping a piece of 220 grit Emory Cloth (sandpaper for metal, but with a cloth back instead of a paper back - as sandpaper normally is sold) around a flat file and use that to "sand" off metal where you need it. The Emory Cloth can be coarser of finer than that, it just depends on how much you have to take off either or both sides of the bottom of the sear on each side of the bolster.

Once you have cleared metal off the bottom of the sear as necessary, you need to "break the edge" or remove any sharp edges or burrs from the bottom of the sear. Easy to do by "sanding" just a bit at an angle on the corners between the bottom and sides of the sear. I normally cold blue the area/s I remove metal from, but it is not absolutely necessary as long as you use a light coat of a good grade of gun oil to keep rust from forming.

Gus

 

[Adui]

Good news. My part came today and as luck would have it; dropped right in. Lock is assembled and adjusted (ish) and ready to put back into the rifle for final fit and firing next time I go to the range.