Primitive Hunt Regulation

[Loyalist Dave]

Excluding the pistols and archery, what would a good description be of the limitations for a muzzleloader. I live out West with Mule Deer and open country. Would appreciate any comments for those restrictions.

The problem was/is..., that instead of extending the season to harvest more deer in areas where deer need more culling of the wild herd..., hunters not normally interested in the outdated technology found in what we call "traditional" firearms co-opted the season once intended for the use of traditional muzzleloaders, to simply extend their hunting season. The proper solution (imho) would be to have a traditional muzzle loading season for ten days (encompassing two full weekends) prior to standard deer season the first week in November..., then extend the standard deer season from two to three weeks and start that the Friday after Thanksgiving..., then after that season, have a second traditional season for 17 days in January. (Actual calendar dates would vary depending on the state and game patterns)

But to reply to the OP as far as rules...

For Cervids:
(I think Pennsylvania does it right. I wouldn't mind it though if caplock sidelocks or underhammers were used.)

Black powder only...,
Muzzle-loading rifles or smoothbores, firing a single, spherical projectile of lead or lead alloy, or suitable substitute..., (no requirement for a patch but you do need the round ball) using black powder or suitable substitute for black powder....,
Original or reproductions of antique firearms introduced in 1845 or earlier, with a minimum caliber of .40, using non-optical sights..,
(allows the .54 caliber 1841 Mississippi rifle, but not Minnie ball firing rifles, and underhammers were introduced in 1826.)

NOW...the above ^^ will give heartburn to the makers of modern rifles designed to conform to muzzleloading regulations, but in my area you are limited in more than half of the state to shotguns or "muzzleloaders", and the fellows with those same non-traditional muzzleloaders use telescopic sights, so they would still be using them with an advantage in some cases to the use of rifled shotguns.


As for the other regulations folks have suggested.... Where I live there is a very long archery season, and nothing impacts the use of bows of the "primitive" type vs. a compound bow..., the modern bows don't make the same impact as modern guns do when paired with traditional muzzleloaders (imho)
"Long Bow" wording excludes things like Native American bows, recurve bows, and Asian "reflex" type recurve bows... not to mention crossbows.

So I think excluding any type of "bow" doesn't make it any more "primitive" nor do I think bows even need a "primitive" season or to be included in such a season. Bows may start harvesting deer 6 weeks before my State's "early" muzzleloader season..

LD

 

[Howard Pippin]

Quite an interesting discussion, so I just will get in about what's happened in Montana.
We do not have a special muzzleloader season. We have some muzzleloader areas that are also open to shotgun and archery. Most of Them are rather small areas from just a few acres up. They are generally along the rivers and streams. In these areas muzzleloaders are under regulation as far as caliber and type of projectile. These areas are only open during the regular hunting season which generally runs, October 21-25 to Thanksgiving. Other than that, we have to hunt areas that are open to all forms of shooting equipment when we compete against all comers. When we are hunting that season, as far as I know, the muzzleloader regulations do not apply as such. We do not have caliber limitations in the general season for big game in Montana, and you could use a 22 long rifle if you so desired. Seems like they Should get their act together to make some decent regulations that make sense. Archery hunters have a five-week big game season that starts Labor Day weekend and runs into the middle of October. If you only archery hunt Antelope, you can start 15 August, and hunt till general season closes, the first Sunday in November. Of course your competing against rifle hunters, so they get wild pretty fast. The archery hunters are well organized and very protective of their season, and I do archery hunt some. The muzzleloader hunters are very disorganized so nothing gets done. General deer and antelope seasons end Thanksgiving weekend.
Squint

 

[cannonball1]

To give you a little history of Utah's deer hunt. We hunt Mule Deer in a lot of open country. When the ML hunt started in the 70's we hunted in Sept. then they moved it to November during the start of the rut. Many complained that all the big buck were being shot(remember most is open country) and mule deer are not like white-tail, so it was moved back in Sept again. Then a couple of years ago the Big Game Board in their better wisdom made it so you could use a high-power scope and every one jumped on the band wagon and started ML'ing. This happened because of three things: The scopes, the newer better inlines, and the fact of the hunt being before the regular hunt. A lot of us could see the error of their ways, but now it is to late. There is to much money purchased by to many, to change the ML equipment so we're stuck with their mistakes. So what are they doing about it; throwing an olive branch to those of us who have complained about the scopes which also increased the number of hunters who, theoretically, are now hunting with a HP rifle. This change will be a NEW LIMITED ENTRY HUNT with a new hunt date. I don't believe most white tail hunters understand a lot of mule deer terrain and the way we hunt here.
These last two posts bring up a couple of good points: First the bow hunters have an very long extended hunt and shouldn't be included in this primitive hunt and second bow hunters are very organized and muzzleloader hunters are very disorganized and probably always will be. That I will be passing on when I send my recommendation to Utah's BGB.

 

[SDSmlf]

I have had the opportunity to hunt in three different states nearly every year for the past twenty five years. It has been at least fifteen years since I saw or hunted with someone using a side lock cap and ball gun. No flintlocks in use other than mine. Belong to a sportsmen’s club with over 350 members and go to the range there once or twice a month. Have not seen a side lock cap and ball or flintlock other than the ones I bring. Interesting to see a guy blasting away with a 338 Lapua being apprehensive about shooting a flintlock when offered because of the flash from the pan and touch hole is ‘intimidating’. Find kids take to flintlocks immediately when offered.

Use of ‘traditional’ firearms is not a growing segment in the hunting community. Fewer hunting licenses are sold every year to an aging group. The largest portion of the muzzleloading hunting community considers anything that loads through the muzzle a muzzleloader. Look at what sells. I just don’t see adding more limits to what we can or cannot use being approved, let alone grow the sport. Not that I don’t want to grow interest in traditional guns, just don’t see it growing by regulation. Hunting seasons today are to control animal populations, license fees generate cash, sporting goods and gun sales drive retailer’s profits, ....

It not often you see ‘traditional’ type gun articles in mainstream magazines any more, but the March NRA American Hunter’s cover article was about Mountain Men and Kit Carson, with a David Wright ‘Rocky Mountain Trapper’ painting on the cover. The article talks a bit about two hunting rifles traceable to Carson. Both are Hawkens, one a .54 caliber, the other a .56 caliber. I find it ironic that if Kit himself were to show up in some hunting camps today with either of these guns he would not be allowed to hunt with them based on rules some in this thread are proposing. Both are cap locks, one made in the late 1850s, the other just noted as made in the 1850s. Kit Carson’s guns use the wrong ignition system and were made too late to make the traditional cut that some would suggest.

Sorry for the rant. Just my opinion. My traditional muzzleloading season occurs when I can go hunting with a traditional muzzleloader. As long as we can hunt with the weapon of our choice it really doesn’t matter what the folks on the next property use. And hopefully they are taking a kid hunting.

Now back to regular programming.

 

[ugly old guy]

Idaho says for their Muzzleloading only seasons:
Loose powder and ball (ball must be within 0.10" of bore diameter) only.
The ball can be round or conical, but must be pure lead or a lead alloy.

The primer cap must be visible when the rifle or musket is cocked.

Flintlock*, Number 10 or 11 percussion caps, and musket caps are the only allowed ignition.

Only iron sights (to include peep sights and/or globe front sights) are allowed.
Those who are visually impared can use a non-magnifying scope with a permit.

The arm must be loadable from the muzzle only.

Specifically prohibited:
209 primers.

Pelletized powders.

Sabots, and modern gas checked or jacketed bullets.

Scopes (with the exception noted above).

Tritium sights.

Anything electronic attached to the hunting weapon, such as range finders, laser or red dot sights, digital cameras, cellphones, etc.

The minimum calibure is .45 for deer and mountain lion, .50 for everything else. (Gray Wolf, Black Bear, Mountain Goat, Big Horn Sheep, Elk, Moose, Antilope, etc.)

*"Flintlock" may or may not include the wheel lock. They do not specifically mention or refer to the wheel lock in the regulations.
(Possibly because no one (that I know of) is mass producing reproductions of them, and the originals are too rare and valuable to hunt with?)

Inline muzzleloaders meeting the calibure restrictions are only allowed in the general "any weapon" seasons.
(not sure why they call it "any weapon" ... You still can't use a machinegun, canon, or a nuke ...)

 

[Howard Pippin]

I have had the opportunity to hunt in three different states nearly every year for the past twenty five years. It has been at least fifteen years since I saw or hunted with someone using a side lock cap and ball gun. No flintlocks in use other than mine. Belong to a sportsmen’s club with over 350 members and go to the range there once or twice a month. Have not seen a side lock cap and ball or flintlock other than the ones I bring. Interesting to see a guy blasting away with a 338 Lapua being apprehensive about shooting a flintlock when offered because of the flash from the pan and touch hole is ‘intimidating’. Find kids take to flintlocks immediately when offered.

Use of ‘traditional’ firearms is not a growing segment in the hunting community. Fewer hunting licenses are sold every year to an aging group. The largest portion of the muzzleloading hunting community considers anything that loads through the muzzle a muzzleloader. Look at what sells. I just don’t see adding more limits to what we can or cannot use being approved, let alone grow the sport. Not that I don’t want to grow interest in traditional guns, just don’t see it growing by regulation. Hunting seasons today are to control animal populations, license fees generate cash, sporting goods and gun sales drive retailer’s profits, ....

It not often you see ‘traditional’ type gun articles in mainstream magazines any more, but the March NRA American Hunter’s cover article was about Mountain Men and Kit Carson, with a David Wright ‘Rocky Mountain Trapper’ painting on the cover. The article talks a bit about two hunting rifles traceable to Carson. Both are Hawkens, one a .54 caliber, the other a .56 caliber. I find it ironic that if Kit himself were to show up in some hunting camps today with either of these guns he would not be allowed to hunt with them based on rules some in this thread are proposing. Both are cap locks, one made in the late 1850s, the other just noted as made in the 1850s. Kit Carson’s guns use the wrong ignition system and were made too late to make the traditional cut that some would suggest.

Sorry for the rant. Just my opinion. My traditional muzzleloading season occurs when I can go hunting with a traditional muzzleloader. As long as we can hunt with the weapon of our choice it really doesn’t matter what the folks on the next property use. And hopefully they are taking a kid hunting.

Now back to regular programming.

I like your mention of those that are afraid to shoot the muzzleloader because of the flash. I was concerned enough about my flintlock, and being I'm left-handed, I had to send my lock-in and have it fitted with a flash guard, as there wasn't one currently made by Ted Cash to fit left-handed only right-handed muzzleloaders. It does kind of help to keep from smoking up the fellow alongside of me at a match. I think it's a viable option for a flintlock, and I totally agree about the kids, I have them shoot a percussion Muzzleloader instead of the Flintlock, as a part of the hunter safety course I teach, due to the safety aspect, and I must say The kids are more interested in shooting the black powder over a 22 long rifle. I have them help me load and seating the ball and I must say they are really interested in what makes it tick.
Squint