Pretzels?

[Nativearizonan]

From a Catholic Church article about pretzels for Lent:

The earliest picture and description of a pretzel (from the fifth century) may be found in the manuscript-codex No. 3867, Vatican Library.

When searching I found mention of even earlier use of pretzels than the above source, but they had not given references. This is, apparently, a real reference and was mentioned several times from different sites. I have given it, now it is up to you or others here to disprove it. I have no access to the Vatican Library, so I have not seen it personally, but it is a reference until proven otherwise.

I did not save the other sites, but will do a search and get back with you.

 

[Nativearizonan]

Here is one that mentions the 4th century as well as the 5th century manuscript already mentioned:

The Birth of the Pretzel

*During Lent, the Early Roman Christians (4th century) observed a strict fast--no milk, no butter, no cheese, no eggs, no cream and no meat. They created a bread which they called "bracellae" which they shaped into the form of arms crossed in prayer (as they prayed) to remind them that Lent was a time of prayer and penance. They sprinkled the top of this pastry with salt.

Later when the monks introduced these breads to the northern countries, the Germanic people coined the word bretzel from bracellae (little arms) from which comes our word pretzel.

The earliest picture and description of a pretzel (from the 5th century) may be found in the manuscript-code #3867 of the Vatican Library.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2590

You may write off the 4th century to inaccurate religious dogma, but I assume some reason it was mentioned. I am not Catholic, nor am I a religious scholar, so I see no worry about talking religion, this is just about what people wrote down.

 

[Nativearizonan]

Here is another who mentions the Vatican Library manuscript:

The fifth century Codex 3867 in the Vatican Library has an illustration of something like a pretzel, whose twists resemble arms crossed across the chest, like someone in prayer.

They go on to say (without references, BTW):

Although the first known use of pretzel dates to the 19th century, the word is derived from the German Brezel, which come from the Latin brachiatus, meaning having branches like arms.

https://kimrendfeld.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/pretzels-in-the-dark-ages/

I realize these are not scholarly papers, but the numbered reference at the Vatican Library makes it a reasonable case for very early use of pretzels-like bread during lent.

 

[coloradoclyde]

My interest is the pretzel.... look in the upper left corner.

This picture is from Pieter Aertsen (circa 1508”“1575) Amsterdam

 

[Nativearizonan]

My interest is the pretzel.... look in the upper left corner.

This picture is from Pieter Aertsen (circa 1508”“1575) Amsterdam

The word pretzel, or the unsweetened twisted knot that we recognize as a pretzel?

Nice picture. Somebody's lunch?

You have already established pretzels among the Germans much earlier, and this is still not in the Americas, so the picture does not add much other than a late spreading to other Germans (Dutch). It does not prove the use of the name "pretzel" either, and one cannot tell if those items are sweetened cookies or salty snacks.

I like looking at the pictures, though. So keep them coming. I wish someone would find a picture of the one supposedly pictured in the 5th century manuscript at the Vatican Library, but I haven't, unfortunately.

 

[Nativearizonan]

BTW, I would think those must be hard "pretzels", not soft ones.

 

[tenngun]

We do have to keep in mind that explanations don’t always fit the facts. Something starts, for unknown reason, then years later people create a story as to why , then poof the story becomes ”˜fact’. We see this across the board. Two nations have tensions over several things. WR breaks out, after the war something good happens, pretty soon achieving that good thing as the cause of the war.
Or clothing in style may start something, long after the fact it’s explained as having been done for such and such reason.
Many of the rules of the Church come from twelve to fifteenth century, but they got back dated, or the rule was practiced only in a very limited way by a small percentage.
All the stories associated with pretzels may have nothing to do with it and were just invented later.

 

[Nativearizonan]

We do have to keep in mind that explanations don’t always fit the facts. Something starts, for unknown reason, then years later people create a story as to why , then poof the story becomes ”˜fact’. We see this across the board. Two nations have tensions over several things. WR breaks out, after the war something good happens, pretty soon achieving that good thing as the cause of the war.
Or clothing in style may start something, long after the fact it’s explained as having been done for such and such reason.
Many of the rules of the Church come from twelve to fifteenth century, but they got back dated, or the rule was practiced only in a very limited way by a small percentage.
All the stories associated with pretzels may have nothing to do with it and were just invented later.

That is quite possible. When I said a case was made, does not mean that case would hold up under scrutiny, just that it has been made. More evidence would have to come forth, and when you are talking about 5th century, there is very little evidence of anything going on, much less pretzels.

BTW, another name for the 5th century Codex number 3867 is the Vergilius Romanus. I have found that much, in my search so far.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergilius_Romanus

There are some example of illustrations from the Vergilius Romanus on line, and I have not exhausted the search for the illusive pretzel picture, but I have already wasted most of Saturday morning and do not intend to spend the whole weekend at it. If anyone else feels like searching for it, have at it.

 

[Nativearizonan]

If this is the illustration in question, I would not agree with these lumps surrounding a fish as unquestionably looking like pretzels; although maybe in the minds of some dogmatic Catholics they are:

If this is the only picture, I will go with a likely German first origination; but, like I said, I'm not sure I have exhausted the search, but I may have exhausted my search.

This is 5th century and from the Vergilius Romanus.

 

[coloradoclyde]

This is also from the Vergilius Romanus, and I would not call that a pretzel either..

 

[coloradoclyde]

Probably the most telling thing we can learn from those pictures is the identity of the man in the center....

 

[coloradoclyde]

Back to pretzels in the 18th century....
https://www.thelocal.de/20150311/250-year-old-pretzel-found-in-bavaria

 

[Black Hand]

After going back through this thread, I found close to half of the posts seem unrelated to Pretzels, or speculative in nature. I have to wonder why Mr. Hand chose my post to criticize. Hmmm.

It's not the first time.

I'm thinking it goes back to a grudge I have not pursued, perhaps about opinions of Native Americans, or Southerners, or both; though I am not sure of that. Maybe because I'm a newby, compared to him, at this website. Perhaps it is just coincidence, that I end up as the target of his attacks. Perhaps I only notice the attacks on me, and not similar attacks on others. I admit to not reading every thread on this forum all the time, so that could be the case.

It bothers me though. I read his post last night and started to respond in similar form before realizing I had imbibed a bit and it would constitute PWI (posting while intoxicated) on my part, which may not have reflected my true meanings.

To begin with, I was going to address him as Black Heart, which would have been wrong and would not have served any purpose other than just a retaliatory attack, which is not needed at this point. I also apologize for thinking of doing this. I know he is a good person, I have never met anyone interested in muzzle loaders and hunting who were not basically good people, although some may suffer from too much alcohol and lead poisoning, myself included.

I am extending the olive branch. I hope Black Hand accepts it.

Carrying grudges is not good for this site, or for any type of communication.

I carry no grudge towards you, nor have I in the past. I was irritated by the religious aspect of the post, since the point of this forum is to deal in historical facts. The mention of religion in any form never ends well for anyone, as each person's views are very different. I for one, do not judge groups of people as a whole, I'm only interested in people on a case-by-case basis regardless of their background.

That said, there are a couple of posters that I've considered placing in the lead box due to their unpleasant nature (you are not among them), but even exceptionally annoying people occasionally have a nugget of wisdom in their copious verbal diarrhea. So I continue to suffer from their comments, as they have decided to make me the target of their discontent.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

the only tangent this hasn't taken is how to incorporate GRITS into pretzels.

 

[Black Hand]

Easy - use grits on your baking pan to keep the pretzels from sticking.... :wink:

 

[Nativearizonan]

I carry no grudge towards you, nor have I in the past. I was irritated by the religious aspect of the post, since the point of this forum is to deal in historical facts. The mention of religion in any form never ends well for anyone, as each person's views are very different. I for one, do not judge groups of people as a whole, I'm only interested in people on a case-by-case basis regardless of their background.

That said, there are a couple of posters that I've considered placing in the lead box due to their unpleasant nature (you are not among them), but even exceptionally annoying people occasionally have a nugget of wisdom in their copious verbal diarrhea. So I continue to suffer from their comments, as they have decided to make me the target of their discontent.

I don't see how we could have had a reasonable discussion on the origin of Pretzels without mentioning religion, regardless of the fact some get personally involved in such discussions. Obviously the earliest claims, substantiated or not, were of monasteries having them. As far as the last supper goes, there is no mention of it anywhere in any period literature, except in the books known as the Gospels in the Holy Bible. They obviously do not mention pretzels, or everyone would have heard of it before now. Those two facts lead to the obvious conclusion that a suggestion of Pretzels at the Last Supper was a joke; okay? I do not see how anyone could take it as anything more than that, even those who strive the hardest to protect their beliefs couldn't take it as a serious statement or the invitation to an argument about Christianity. In other words, I don't feel your argument has merit.

I am glad to know you do not carry a grudge against me, though, and I wish you well.

 

[Nativearizonan]

I'm thinking you could sprinkle grits on top when making salt-free pretzels, so they would look more like real pretzels.

 

[satx78247]

OR I suppose that someone could try putting grits into the pretzel recipe??
(I'll personally continue to simmer my grits & serve them with eggs, patty sausage & cathead biscuits.)

yours, satx

 

[Wes/Tex]

Easy - use grits on your baking pan to keep the pretzels from sticking.... :wink:

Bazinga! To quote a rather humorous character! :wink:

 

[Kansas Jake]

Okay, pretzels, do you eat them with mustard, dip them in nacho cheese like at the ball park or just plain. I really like them with mustard. I had some sauerkraut mustard the other day with brats at a cafe and I bet that would really go good with them.