rodwha
58 Cal.
Schuetzen/Grafs doesn't have the power Swiss does by volume.
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Powder Brand Differences
- Thread starter AlanG
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Are you saying Olde Eynsford gives less or more fouling?
I looked at Maine Powder House, thought about going there to pick up actually- they had a lot of paperwork they wanted to fill out for an online order. Don't know why.
I found Grafs so pleasant and easy to deal with that i found myself wanting to order from them, I thought their prices were good, and their $7.95 fixed shipping was a pleasant surprise. $40.00 minimum order though.
I looked at Maine Powder House, thought about going there to pick up actually- they had a lot of paperwork they wanted to fill out for an online order. Don't know why.
I found Grafs so pleasant and easy to deal with that i found myself wanting to order from them, I thought their prices were good, and their $7.95 fixed shipping was a pleasant surprise. $40.00 minimum order though.
rodwha
58 Cal.
As far as actual BP goes Olde E is all I've tried. I require a more powerful powder and there's not much choice there. And this is mostly concerning my revolvers where powder capacity is limited to where I can choose between my projectile producing .38 Spl performance or .45 Colt performance. Big difference.
hanshi
Cannon
OE would be my choice in c&b revolvers.
I got my powder today. I definitely found some differences between the Olde Eynsford and the Swiss.
I was shooting at 50yds from a rest using my Pedersoli Deluxe Frontier rifle with a 60gr 3F charge, .440RB, and a .015 patch with Lehigh Valley lube. Stock wood ramrod used for all loading.Bull is 2" in diameter.
First target shows OE on top and the Swiss below- 3 shots each but the OE was on a fresh barrel:
Second target is 2 shots with OE:
Third target was 2 shots with Swiss:
i didn't set up a chronograph, so some is objective but couldn't detect any difference in point of aim or increased recoil. Both the Swiss and OE were slightly more accurate than Goex for me. I cleaned every three shots, and the O.E. was noticeably cleaner burning with softer fouling, but the Swiss was a harder fouling near the breach and didn't load as easy.
Both seemed to produce less smoke- curious as to what would cause this.
First target was primed with 4F, other targets with same 3F as in barrel. Obviously this is pretty simplistic testing, but i would choose the Olde Eynsford for my use.
I was shooting at 50yds from a rest using my Pedersoli Deluxe Frontier rifle with a 60gr 3F charge, .440RB, and a .015 patch with Lehigh Valley lube. Stock wood ramrod used for all loading.Bull is 2" in diameter.
First target shows OE on top and the Swiss below- 3 shots each but the OE was on a fresh barrel:
Second target is 2 shots with OE:
Third target was 2 shots with Swiss:
i didn't set up a chronograph, so some is objective but couldn't detect any difference in point of aim or increased recoil. Both the Swiss and OE were slightly more accurate than Goex for me. I cleaned every three shots, and the O.E. was noticeably cleaner burning with softer fouling, but the Swiss was a harder fouling near the breach and didn't load as easy.
Both seemed to produce less smoke- curious as to what would cause this.
First target was primed with 4F, other targets with same 3F as in barrel. Obviously this is pretty simplistic testing, but i would choose the Olde Eynsford for my use.
I'll try to repost- I don't know how to delete or edit posts.
I got my powder today. I definitely found some differences between the Olde Eynsford and the Swiss.
I was shooting at 50yds from a rest using my Pedersoli Deluxe Frontier rifle with a 60gr 3F charge, .440RB, and a .015 patch with Lehigh Valley lube. Stock wood ramrod used for all loading.Bull is 2" in diameter.
First target shows OE on top and the Swiss below- 3 shots each but the OE was on a fresh barrel:
Second target is 2 shots with O.E:
Third target was 2 shots with Swiss:
i didn't set up a chronograph, so some is objective but couldn't detect any difference in point of aim or increased recoil. Both the Swiss and OE were slightly more accurate than Goex for me. I cleaned every three shots, and the O.E. was noticeably cleaner burning with softer fouling, but the Swiss was a harder fouling near the breach and didn't load as easy.
Both seemed to produce less smoke- curious as to what would cause this.
First target was primed with 4F, other targets with same 3F as in barrel. Obviously this is pretty simplistic testing, but i would choose the Olde Eynsford for my use.
I got my powder today. I definitely found some differences between the Olde Eynsford and the Swiss.
I was shooting at 50yds from a rest using my Pedersoli Deluxe Frontier rifle with a 60gr 3F charge, .440RB, and a .015 patch with Lehigh Valley lube. Stock wood ramrod used for all loading.Bull is 2" in diameter.
First target shows OE on top and the Swiss below- 3 shots each but the OE was on a fresh barrel:
Second target is 2 shots with O.E:
Third target was 2 shots with Swiss:
i didn't set up a chronograph, so some is objective but couldn't detect any difference in point of aim or increased recoil. Both the Swiss and OE were slightly more accurate than Goex for me. I cleaned every three shots, and the O.E. was noticeably cleaner burning with softer fouling, but the Swiss was a harder fouling near the breach and didn't load as easy.
Both seemed to produce less smoke- curious as to what would cause this.
First target was primed with 4F, other targets with same 3F as in barrel. Obviously this is pretty simplistic testing, but i would choose the Olde Eynsford for my use.
Please reduce your photo size to 950 pixels wide before storing them on a photo storing web site and posting (linking) them here on the forum.
all I have ever used is goex. it has served me well and I never saw a need to switch. i get it by the keg. I have been shooting 3f but the last auction I was at I got 5 lb. of 2f 1lb. of 3f and 1 lb. of 4f all for $60.
I was shooting my one rifle 45gr. 3f. then I tried the same charge of 2f. the result they all went into the same group and same point of aim. and it shot just as clean.
I was shooting my one rifle 45gr. 3f. then I tried the same charge of 2f. the result they all went into the same group and same point of aim. and it shot just as clean.
rodwha
58 Cal.
It may well have worked just fine for you. But that doesn't mean there's not something better. As you stated you haven't tried anything but standard Goex.
And as you I haven't tried anything but Olde E. But by all accounts I wouldn't be happy with standard Goex as it supposedly leaves more fouling and certainly wouldn't care for the lack of performance in my revolvers for hunting. And I don't mean that to come off as condescending.
And as you I haven't tried anything but Olde E. But by all accounts I wouldn't be happy with standard Goex as it supposedly leaves more fouling and certainly wouldn't care for the lack of performance in my revolvers for hunting. And I don't mean that to come off as condescending.
A big difference in velocity and fouling even in small chambers such as revolvers.
And as you I haven't tried anything but Olde E. But by all accounts I wouldn't be happy with standard Goex as it supposedly leaves more fouling and certainly wouldn't care for the lack of performance in my revolvers for hunting. And I don't mean that to come off as condescending.
Seems condescending to me if you have only just begun in your buying BP, only one BP powder does not make an expert.
And as you I haven't tried anything but Olde E. But by all accounts I wouldn't be happy with standard Goex as it supposedly leaves more fouling and certainly wouldn't care for the lack of performance in my revolvers for hunting. And I don't mean that to come off as condescending.
Seems condescending to me if you have only just begun in your buying BP, only one BP powder does not make an expert.
rodwha
58 Cal.
But thanks to the experience and chronographed results of others I don't need to try them all to see. There are plenty of books that show us all if we but just open them and look for ourselves. If one chooses not to, well...
And so it's a well established fact that standard 3F Goex cannot provide the velocity that either Olde E or Swiss can. And therefor I can choose a powder that produces subpar performance creating what many consider to be inhumane ballistics for hunting or I can choose a powder that produces what many consider to be acceptable. It's rather simple really.
Oh, and I have not just begun my powder buying nor did I claim to be an expert. However I can claim that I've researched quite extensively powders, both traditional and substitutes, and their performance with various styles of projectiles as I was initially told by the masses, including people here on this forum, that a cap n ball pistol will produce nothing more than .38 Spl results, which come to find out is erroneous as they've obviously not researched anything else but only chose as gospel from a small pool of results from just a few people.
And so it's a well established fact that standard 3F Goex cannot provide the velocity that either Olde E or Swiss can. And therefor I can choose a powder that produces subpar performance creating what many consider to be inhumane ballistics for hunting or I can choose a powder that produces what many consider to be acceptable. It's rather simple really.
Oh, and I have not just begun my powder buying nor did I claim to be an expert. However I can claim that I've researched quite extensively powders, both traditional and substitutes, and their performance with various styles of projectiles as I was initially told by the masses, including people here on this forum, that a cap n ball pistol will produce nothing more than .38 Spl results, which come to find out is erroneous as they've obviously not researched anything else but only chose as gospel from a small pool of results from just a few people.
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I have one revolver and several each percussion and flintlock rifles and smoothbores. I like Swiss fffg in my revolver, but don't care for it in my rifles or smoothbores. It may well produce more velocity, but at the expense of stiffer fouling. Conversely, I can shoot as long as I care to with Goex fffg in my rifles without needing to so much as damp patch the bores.
My current powder inventory still includes old Elephant from '96 or '97, the improved Elephant from '99, Diamondback (made on the relocated Elephant machinery), KIK from 2000, Goex, and Swiss in various granulations. What I've not shot are Wano/Schuetzen/Graf and OE. That said, If I had to make a single powder choice, and I'm working towards shooting up the odd stuff, it most certainly would be Goex fffg.
I've shot quite a bit of BP, as much as 40# in a single year, but don't claim to be the expert. I know how I prefer my rifles to load and shoot. A kicker charge of Goex fffg under most of the powders other than Swiss seems to make them perform more like Goex fffg, and that is what I do to burn up my residuals while working on my offhand. :thumbsup:
My current powder inventory still includes old Elephant from '96 or '97, the improved Elephant from '99, Diamondback (made on the relocated Elephant machinery), KIK from 2000, Goex, and Swiss in various granulations. What I've not shot are Wano/Schuetzen/Graf and OE. That said, If I had to make a single powder choice, and I'm working towards shooting up the odd stuff, it most certainly would be Goex fffg.
I've shot quite a bit of BP, as much as 40# in a single year, but don't claim to be the expert. I know how I prefer my rifles to load and shoot. A kicker charge of Goex fffg under most of the powders other than Swiss seems to make them perform more like Goex fffg, and that is what I do to burn up my residuals while working on my offhand. :thumbsup:
Yikes- hope I didn't step on any toes with this post. Lots of "Red Can Pride"!
I went shooting again today and chronographed some loads. This time I shot my .50 w/patched ball over 75 grains of the Goex, Swiss, and Olde Eynsford 3f
i did two- 3 shot strings of the Goex, and three- 3 shot strings of the Swiss and O.E. i didn't swab between shots, but I did swab with Lehigh Valley Lube between strings.
It was Goex, O.E. and then Swiss for increasing velocity. but I sure as heck don't think that small velocity increase would affect my decisions.
15' from the muzzle Goex averaged 1,695fps, O.E. averaged 1,718, and the Swiss averaged 1,761. Swiss had the largest standard deviation followed by the Goex and then the O.E., but they were all under 35fps and the differences were pretty negligible.
The Swiss gave 1 shot at 1,804- but I threw that out since it was an anomaly.
The Swiss's velocity increased with each shot, and I think if I did a 5 shot string there would have been a much greater deviation with it.
i did all of my loading with the guns wooden ramrod since I wanted to get a better feel for the loading differences vs. using a metal range rod and the third shot of the Swiss was considerably harder to load.
I don't see the extra money for the Swiss being worth it just to gain 43fps over the O.E..
i do think the Swiss and OE are a little more accurate than Goex, at least in the 2 times I have shot it so far.
I was dissapointed in the Swiss, and wouldn't buy it again (well, I'll try that Nul-B sometime)Surprised me since so many people seem to prefer it.
For my type of shooting I am going with the O.E.- I would say it's a good step up from the Goex, noticeably cleaner than the Swiss and Goex, primes a Flinter better than Goex, and is only like a dollar more, and being made in the US is a plus for me.
I e-mailed Goex and asked them the difference between O.E. and the red can. Here is what they said:
"The real difference between the Red Can and the Old Eynsford is processing time. The Old Eynsford is made of finer particles so it burns more cleanly and will almost always give higher velocity than the Red Can. Charcoal does not figure into this equation."
I went shooting again today and chronographed some loads. This time I shot my .50 w/patched ball over 75 grains of the Goex, Swiss, and Olde Eynsford 3f
i did two- 3 shot strings of the Goex, and three- 3 shot strings of the Swiss and O.E. i didn't swab between shots, but I did swab with Lehigh Valley Lube between strings.
It was Goex, O.E. and then Swiss for increasing velocity. but I sure as heck don't think that small velocity increase would affect my decisions.
15' from the muzzle Goex averaged 1,695fps, O.E. averaged 1,718, and the Swiss averaged 1,761. Swiss had the largest standard deviation followed by the Goex and then the O.E., but they were all under 35fps and the differences were pretty negligible.
The Swiss gave 1 shot at 1,804- but I threw that out since it was an anomaly.
The Swiss's velocity increased with each shot, and I think if I did a 5 shot string there would have been a much greater deviation with it.
i did all of my loading with the guns wooden ramrod since I wanted to get a better feel for the loading differences vs. using a metal range rod and the third shot of the Swiss was considerably harder to load.
I don't see the extra money for the Swiss being worth it just to gain 43fps over the O.E..
i do think the Swiss and OE are a little more accurate than Goex, at least in the 2 times I have shot it so far.
I was dissapointed in the Swiss, and wouldn't buy it again (well, I'll try that Nul-B sometime)Surprised me since so many people seem to prefer it.
For my type of shooting I am going with the O.E.- I would say it's a good step up from the Goex, noticeably cleaner than the Swiss and Goex, primes a Flinter better than Goex, and is only like a dollar more, and being made in the US is a plus for me.
I e-mailed Goex and asked them the difference between O.E. and the red can. Here is what they said:
"The real difference between the Red Can and the Old Eynsford is processing time. The Old Eynsford is made of finer particles so it burns more cleanly and will almost always give higher velocity than the Red Can. Charcoal does not figure into this equation."
rodwha
58 Cal.
Interesting that you saw little velocity difference. I can't say I've seen that with anyone else. Standard Goex is usually quite a bit slower. Granted most of what I've seen is comparing pistols of various types.
Yeah- I was surprised too. Everything I read lead me to believe Swiss should get about 100fps more than Goex. in the 30" plus barrel. My Goex was about 15 years old- maybe that's the difference- can't imagine though.
I read a lot about the various powders on a lot of websites and i guess i was being naive, but I don't think some of these guys have even tried the Swiss because the comments of "shooting all day without cleaning in between" have to be straight bull. Getting that ball down the last 2" was tough on the 3rd shot- similar to what i get after about 10 with Goex. but who knows.
But I guess that's part of the fun with Muzzleloading, piddling around with things until you find what works for you.
I read a lot about the various powders on a lot of websites and i guess i was being naive, but I don't think some of these guys have even tried the Swiss because the comments of "shooting all day without cleaning in between" have to be straight bull. Getting that ball down the last 2" was tough on the 3rd shot- similar to what i get after about 10 with Goex. but who knows.
But I guess that's part of the fun with Muzzleloading, piddling around with things until you find what works for you.
I tried out a few more loads today only using my .45 flint. I'm even more sold on the Olde Eynsford over the Swiss now.
I did two, four shot strings over the Chrono using 65 grains:
Swiss
Average- 1,904
Deviation- 11
O.E.
Average- 1,887
Deviation- 13.3
Just for fun i also did
75gr O.E.- 1988
90gr O.E.- 2114 (yikes)
The O.E. fouls less and is way softer than Swiss, but I did notice that the track's Mink Oil patch lube was better at keeping the fouling a little softer on the Swiss than the Lehigh valley Lube I used previously.
With the O.E. you could just push the ball down in one long pushing motion, with the Swiss I had to use that type of repetitive jack hammering type motion with the ramrod- I don't like this, but I know a lot of people do that all of the time anyway.
So far I don't see a reason to pay the extra money for the Swiss.
I did two, four shot strings over the Chrono using 65 grains:
Swiss
Average- 1,904
Deviation- 11
O.E.
Average- 1,887
Deviation- 13.3
Just for fun i also did
75gr O.E.- 1988
90gr O.E.- 2114 (yikes)
The O.E. fouls less and is way softer than Swiss, but I did notice that the track's Mink Oil patch lube was better at keeping the fouling a little softer on the Swiss than the Lehigh valley Lube I used previously.
With the O.E. you could just push the ball down in one long pushing motion, with the Swiss I had to use that type of repetitive jack hammering type motion with the ramrod- I don't like this, but I know a lot of people do that all of the time anyway.
So far I don't see a reason to pay the extra money for the Swiss.
1100 Remington Man
36 Cal.
Pyrodex what is everyone's thoughts on it and does it shoot as fast as Black powder weight.
With it hard to get black powder and Pyrodex is every where I surprised so many prefere Black Powder.
I use 90 grains by volume not weight in my .54 in my Rengade and patched round ball and I think recoil is modest.
I don't have a chonograph so I don't know what kind of speed I am getting in FPS but I see no reason to go to a lighter powder charge.
With it hard to get black powder and Pyrodex is every where I surprised so many prefere Black Powder.
I use 90 grains by volume not weight in my .54 in my Rengade and patched round ball and I think recoil is modest.
I don't have a chonograph so I don't know what kind of speed I am getting in FPS but I see no reason to go to a lighter powder charge.
It has to be duplex loaded to work in a flinter, I have a hunk of p but that’s a big problem for me. Another problem is it’s traditional ml, so I want a traditional powder. Pyrodex is a metal rotter. That should not be a concern as I clean that day. Balisticly volume for volume p acts like bp.so I do use it in my revolvers
Now, some of my clothing is cotton, some is machine sewn, my guns have modern steel barrels, some of my wool has nylon in it, life’s not perfect.
Now, some of my clothing is cotton, some is machine sewn, my guns have modern steel barrels, some of my wool has nylon in it, life’s not perfect.
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Pyrodex is more corrosive than real blackpowder, and requires a higher temperature ignition source, so is why flintlocks are "blackpowder only". Pyrodex pellets had real blackpowder on the ends to promote ignition. Too, the "substitutes" have a shelf life vs BP being very stable indefinitely provided that it is kept dry.
Sourcing blackpowder is as simple as a phone call to any of a number of suppliers. They WILL want a "letter of intent" for their files that simply states that it is for your personal use in sporting firearms. Depending who you order from and how much you order, you will pay shipping and hazmat or not.
Sourcing blackpowder is as simple as a phone call to any of a number of suppliers. They WILL want a "letter of intent" for their files that simply states that it is for your personal use in sporting firearms. Depending who you order from and how much you order, you will pay shipping and hazmat or not.
