Poorboy or barn gun rifles

[Hota]

It seems we will never decide how common the poorboy was in 1776, but perhaps a better question may be "why would anyone want one today?". The cost of a good lock, average barrel, and plain stock will set you back enough that it would seem foolish to skimp on such small parts as buttplate, triggerguard and thimbles.

I got my TVM Tennessee poorboy for $700. The TVM Early Lancaster was $1075. For what a patchbox, side plate and nose cap? Like I said, even Toni Avance said the Tennessee poorboy was an early lancaster without the "ginger". That is why I went that way anyway. And the TVM poorboy comes with brass butt plate, thimbles, and trigger gaurd. So you are just not getting the nose, patchbox and side plate.

I think the misconception here is that poorboy can be defined loosely to mean a type of rifle vs. a specific model offered by a company. The two should not be confused.

Not that this is accurate....I watched the Patriot again tonight for the purpose of seeing what rifles were used in that movie. I read the Gibson wanted that movie to be as authentic as possible. After the scene where his son was shot and he brought the four rifles from out of his burning house, two were plain and two were dressed. There may have been a fifth but I didn't catch it. Not historical by any means but thought it was interesting and thought other movie buffs may take some interest in it.

 

[Huntinfool]

Maybe one day the novelty of a variety of different calibers will wear off and I'll sell all these rifles for one beautiful custom rilfe in .50 or .54cal and just use that for everything :winking:

Hey Roundball that sounds like a plan hatching somewhere in the back of your brain! :crackup:

I did the same thing I shot a prodution rifle for 3 or 4 years. Biding my time all the while wishing and hoping till it became a reality! I've never been happier since I got mine!

Another thought would be to keep one of them TC's whichever one you like the best. And get yourself a custom built rifle in the same caliber so you can have a backup rifle and you can use the same RB's in both rifles. Just a thought!

Chuck

 

[Bob J]

Maybe one day the novelty of a variety of different calibers will wear off and I'll sell all these rifles for one beautiful custom rilfe in .50 or .54cal and just use that for everything :winking:

Hey Roundball that sounds like a plan hatching somewhere in the back of your brain! :crackup:

I did the same thing I shot a prodution rifle for 3 or 4 years. Biding my time all the while wishing and hoping till it became a reality! I've never been happier since I got mine!

Another thought would be to keep one of them TC's whichever one you like the best. And get yourself a custom built rifle in the same caliber so you can have a backup rifle and you can use the same RB's in both rifles. Just a thought!

Chuck

That's what I'm trying to do to a certain degree; sell off a few and have that "one" do-it-all (almost - will still need ML shotgun for turkey and small caliber for squirrel : rifle. For me, that plan is developing into a southern mountain .54 FLINTLOCK with swamped barrel - fairly plain except for extra curly maple . At a cost of $1300 -1500. This will be the hang-on-the-wall-with-powderhorn, take to the Rondy and range, and hunting rifle. Will keep GPR for rainy day huntin :haha:

 

[tg]

"It seems we will never decide how common the poorboy was in 1776, but perhaps a better question may be "why would anyone want one today?". The cost of a good lock, average barrel, and plain stock will set you back enough that it would seem foolish to skimp on such small parts as buttplate, triggerguard and thimbles. I expect I'd have felt about the same 250 years ago.'

Why on earth would it be "foolish" to try and recreate a particular type of gun from history be it fancy or plain, I would think it would be foolish to buy, build or have built any gun without considerable research on the originals of the type if one wants a gun that is based upon a type (any type) from the past....... and this is seldom done judging by many of the posts on the what, where, and when of many guns.

 

[jim gray]

It seems we will never decide how common the poorboy was in 1776, but perhaps a better question may be "why would anyone want one today?". The cost of a good lock, average barrel, and plain stock will set you back enough that it would seem foolish to skimp on such small parts as buttplate, triggerguard and thimbles. I expect I'd have felt about the same 250 years ago.

"Why today?" is probably as much a matter of personal taste as anything else, but in the case of re-enacting an expensive fowler or richly embellished longrifle wouldn't be appropriate to every persona. Personal tastes are another matter entirely and there is just no logical way to explain a person's individual preferences.

 

[rich pierce]

Hey Roundball- get yourself a nice semi-custom flint longrifle in .50 or .54 as an all-rounder. You won't regret it. If you need some help give me a holler. [email protected]

 

[CoyoteJoe]

It seems like we keep coming back to the idea that any "plain" rifle, without frills such as relief carving and numberous openwork inlays and wire inlays is a "poorboy".
I have been speaking all along of rifles minus the basic parts such as buttplate or triggerguard. I'm not saying plain rifles were scarce but again that some corners are not worth cutting and never were. Omission of such basic parts degrades the rifle more than the cost.
I think we're hung up on that term "poorboy". Your poorboy has all the basic parts and I'm sure you could have reduced the cost by 25 or 30 bucks by omitting the buttplate but you chose not to because that part is well worth its' cost even on the plainest cheapest gun.

 

[dlemaster]

This is a topic that was discussed extensively in the Traditional gun shop where I served my apprenticeship back in the mid to late 70's, when an artical came out in "Muzzle Blasts" extolling "Shimmel" rifles.
Please keep in mind that in the 18th century gunsmiths were highly trained artisans, the average apprenticeship lasted 7 years. The only trade with a longer apprenticeship was in clock making, that was 13 years. ::
These folks on the same equivelent that trained, licsensed electricians, plumbers, and others today are. Can you imagine a trained, licsened electrician wiring a home or busness with S.O. cord, or a plumber plumbing a home or busness with garden hoses. :haha:
So where did these guns come from? As mentioned before some if not most are surely a secondary usage of parts from earlier guns, by skilled, semi-skilled, or mechanically inclined indivduals who may not have had the necessary parts or tools.
I will offer a partial explanation for this from Rev. John Heckwelder's journal. Heckwelder was a Moravian missionary to the indians in Ohio in the 18th century. In speaking of the Delaware Indians in the 1780s, that some of them had learned to make gun stocks that were neatly and well made. :hmm: If an indian could develope those skills why couldn't a white farmer or youth do the same thing?
:thumbsup:
I would feel pretty confident in saying that few of the guns that today we call poor boys, barn guns, or shimmels date from the 18th century.
Just some other thoughts.

Regards, Dave

 

I have pretty well summed up my thoughts on this topic before, so I won't repeat it here. I do think, however, that we reach a "dangerous" point in our reasoning when we try to paint our 20th/21st century "ideals", prejudices, outlook, desires, etc. onto our 18th century ancestors. We live in a much more materialist society (heck even more so than in my own youth), where some don't even think greed is a bad word. We keep up with the Joneses and accumulate material "wealth"--or at least a lot of "things", useful or not. We go into great debt and live on credit. Our outdoor sports writers describe every gun they use or are touting in glowing detail in Sports Afield and Guns and Ammo. Heck we put fins on cars for a while. Was this the 18th century mindset of the average man? I don't think so. When they wrote of using a rifle they simply called it a "rifle" (or rifle-gun) and never described it. I have searched far and wide for just one period description. Nada. Today, however, we read: "I raised my customized Model 70 Winchester, with its Claro walnut stock, and fired my special handloaded proprietary .333 spire pointed jacketed bullet at the...."
Our culture and the bias of the collected old guns is what sways those who say that every man carried a fine carved inlaid rifle in 1770..... :m2c:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Amen and Poorboys forever!!!!!

 

[Stumpkiller]

I suppose. :hmm:

But look what they wore as clothes.

Frills, fringes, big brass buttons with no function. Wigs. Ornate shoe buckles when laces would have been much more frugal. Ever see a simple 18th century clock? They weren't made, because clockmakers had to maintain an image of preciseness and the buyers demanded ornamentation.


Look at a simple harpsicord.

20 pounds of "tat" as Squire Robins would say.


A simple stove.

Cast iron ribbons and draperies.


A "common" silver mug

The pewter ones were just as fancy.

I maintain the 18th century folks were more fashion conscious and careful about appearances than we are now.

Maybe 5% of gun owners were "longhunters". The rest were otherwize employed citizens who were not especially poor and probably not boys. Men of means and social standing who wanted a most excellent firelock for defense and nutrition from a Sunday hunt (six day work week, doncha know).

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I don't believe anyone said "that every man carried a fine carved and inlaid rifle in 1770". But I expect most people did carry the best they possibly could and would have looked upon a rifle without buttplate as being rather "trashy".
People now seem to be inamoured of that silly made-up title of "poorboy". Would you like it as well if it were called "white trash"?
:crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[Bob J]

This forum is thought-provoking and provides a deeply intellectual historical perspective (and my wife wouldn't believe it if I tried to explain....) :haha: Stumpkiller, once again you have richly contributed with examples and illustrations! :applause: G :thumbsuptta love the 'Forum

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

There were many fine and elegant things available in the 18th century. And a large number of people who could afford
them. I doubt if many every day men and women dressed in finery or even had such clothing, especially on the frontier. And it seems to me that few farmers would have had a spinet of any description. Well to do city folks no doubt had many luxuries and had fine pistols and fowlers. Some no doubt had splendid rifles as well. The plainer arms and items of every day life were the province of the average person who comprised the majority.

I am really not all that concerned as to whether there were rifles made without butt pieces in the 18th century. I do think it is likely that some were. I also think it is likely that many plain rifles were made for use by ordinary folk on the frontier and by poorer folk on farms and in the country. Just as these same people had simple pine furniture in their homes--bereft of carving and ornamentation--but elegant and functional all the same.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Funny you should mention it Joe. I call my favorite (and
very plain) long rifle White Trash. As in "Me and Ol' White Trash got us a b'ar t'other day!" I have a matching flintlock pistol (plainer still) that I call Ol' Bottom Feedin' Commie Pinko Slime Ball Wanker Delinquent Tax Dodging Liberal Twinkie. I named it after a favorite aunt.

 

[hairsmith]

Long Live the poor boy white trash. For it was this people that has toiled, bled and died to make this country free.
Sure there have always bin and always will the prosperous upper class that have flaunted there wealth and taken the credit.
But when push comes to shove, it is the working class that is counted on to take the fight to our enemies For the less we have the more we have to loose.
Always has Always will I guess. But that is the beauty of freedom.

Hairsmith

 

[popgun]

When I started muzzleloading 40 years ago I was given an old rifle that someone, many years past, had built from an even older gun. The cast brass butplate had the notch along the side where a patchbox lid had once rested. The trigger guard was of a fancy cast pattern. The barrel was swamped and had been signed, though the letters were almost gone. The broken and splintered stock was of tightly striped maple and had been cut down to a halfstock sometime in its life. The lock plate showed that it had been converted to percussion. My point is that this gun could have been a fancy ornate rifle which through years of use and repair had changed almost completely and probably ended up in the barn.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Long Live the poor boy white trash. For it was this people that has toiled, bled and died to make this country free.

Don't confuse the "poor white trash" for the common man, dirt farmer or laborer. "Trash" is trash whether it's rich or poor. This country wasn't built by bumbs. It was built by men who knew they could do better and be better no matter what their social standing. That is what seperated America from every nation prior. The concept that all men are created equal. This country was built by ambitious men, rich and poor. The lazy ones just followed along.

 

[hairsmith]

Long Live the poor boy white trash. For it was this people that has toiled, bled and died to make this country free.

Don't confuse the "poor white trash" for the common man, dirt farmer or laborer. "Trash" is trash whether it's rich or poor. This country wasn't built by bumbs. It was built by men who knew they could do better and be better no matter what their social standing. That is what seperated America from every nation prior. The concept that all men are created equal. This country was built by ambitious men, rich and poor. The lazy ones just followed along.

:agree:
I agree Stumpkiller, I was trying to show the over use of the many terms for the plane rifles of the past. I should not post so late after a long day. :sleep:

 

[BLAHMAN]

With all this talk about "poorboys", "barnguns", "schimmels" and the like, I think I'm going to make one. I got a barrel, 50 caliber, and I'll purchase the lock. The trigger, trigger plate, ramrod pipes and trigger gaurd I'll make.

I'm also tempted (tempted only) to do an "aging" process much akin to what our friend and mentor Stumblin' Buffler did in the last article in Buckskinner.

The thought is seriously there.