Pietta 1858 New Army and confused

[Paul LaFranco]

I just got a new Pietta 1858 New Army revolver and Im trying to get everything together in order to shoot it but theres a few conflicting things. The gun came with two manuals, the one from Pietta, and one from Cabelas. The Pietta manual says to use .454 lead round balls but the Cabelas manual says to use .451 round balls????? Who's right? Also I bought a CVA black powder dispenser the kind with the long nosel that you fill by pushing a small spring loaded lever, it's suposed to dispense 25-30 grns of powder. Im going to use Pyrodex P, and the manual says 28 grns of Pyrodex P but when I filled the CVA dispenser and weighed it is only throwing 17-19 grns of powder on my RCBS scale. Now I have a black powder measure, the kind you set to a certain grns in 5 grn incurments and fill with a powder horn, when I set the powder measure to 30 grns and fill it with the CVA powder dispenser it's just a little short of the 30 grn mark? Im confused about this any advise will be greatly appriciated.
Thanks
Paul

 

[Robert Egler]

Hi,
I use .451 balls in mine, they shave just a small ring of lead while loading. Black powder is measured by volume not by weight. In theory 100 grains of 2f black powder (the real stuff) also has a weight of 100 grains. But if you're using anything else, triple 7, pyrodex, or even 3f black powder, the weight and volume will not be the same. You should use a volumetric powder measure for muzzeloading firearm s. So when it says 28 grains, use a black powder volume measure of 28 grains, regardless of its weight.

 

[Zonie]

My Dixie Gunworks catalog is kinda old and Pietta might have changed the size but, it shows the chamber size in the Pietta 1858 .44 cal Army as .446 on one model and .449 on another.

If this is still true, either ball would work.
The .451 size would ram pretty easily and the .454 would take a bit harder push on the loading lever.

The main thing is that the ball must be slightly larger than the chambers in the cylinder so that there is a small ring of lead sheared off of them as they enter the chamber mouth.

This shearing assures the ball is a line to line fit with the chambers so the ball will stay in place when the gun fires. It also seals the chamber mouth so the flash from the firing chamber doesn't get into the adjacent chambers and fire the powder. (Known as a "chain fire".)

Pyrodex is made to be measured by the same volume as real black powder.

A measure that is made to dispense 30 grains of black powder usually comes close to measuring out an amount of black powder that weighs close to 30 grains.

That same amount of Pyrodex has about the same amount of power as the 30 grains of black powder.

Pyrodex is less dense than real black powder. That is, a given volume of it weighs less than real black powder.

Hodgedon says Pyrodex weighs about 70 percent as much as real black powder.
https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

That being true, your 30 grain powder measure should dispense about 30 X 0.70 = 21.0 grains (actual weight) of Pyrodex.

 

[hawkeye2]

Use the .454" balls, the .451" are too small. Don't weigh the Pyrodex, go by volume. The most accurate load using black powder will be somewhere between 18 to 24 grains of 3f by volume and of course the max load is all that you can get in the cylinder and still put a ball in on top of it which will be over 30 grains. There really isn't any need to go there unless you like the smoke and noise and your accuracy will drop off. If your dispenser is supposed to throw a weight of 25 to 30 grains of black then that volume of Pyrodex would work but you don't really need that large a load. I would start off using the adjustable measure at 20 grains and go up if you felt you needed to. Five grains is quite a jump in a revolver and you might find your best load in between the weights your measure will throw which is why I like an infinitely adjustable measure. The set of plastic dippers by Lee are very handy for working up loads too. You can always cut the spout on your flask back to throw the desired load after you determine what it is.

 

[bpd303]

Like everyone has said, never use a scales to measure substitute powders. Use only a volumetric measure.

 

[necchi]

Wow, you got a lot of things going on in your post. :wink:
Cabelas law-yers made them print that book,, throw it out.
Volume measures do not and can not be compared with actual weight.(they just ain't the same) What is needed is a volume measure that is adjusted to your needs. You get to choose what's best for you,, and you need to do the work to get there. :wink:
Put away the scale and listen to what the fellers will tell ya here,, it'll take a little practice but you'll get there.

 

[Mr. Troll]

I have a Pietta 1858, made in 2015. After experimenting with several variables, I found that 30 gr of Pyrodex P, or 30 gr. of APP 3f work quite well. I use #10 Remington caps, as they fit the oem nipples perfectly. I am using the .451 balls, either cast or swaged. I tried the .454 balls at first...They don't seem to make any difference. I removed about 1/32 of an inch from the height of the front sight to bring the point of impact up to almost dead canter at 25 yards. The Pyrodex will foul the base pin after about 20 shots, making it hard to remove, but the APP won't do that at all. Here is a link to a calculator to use to adjust the sight height to zero the gun https://www.jackweigand.com/Point Of Impact Adjustment Formula.html

 

[Kansas Jake]

I agree with Zonie on the .451 and .454 round balls in a Pietta 1858. I've used both. As long as you shave a little lead either will work. If the .451 go into the cambers without much force or don't shave lead, then you will want to use .454. I've had good luck with both in mine. I have several other revolvers that need .454

 

[AZbpBurner]

I'd used .454" RB's for a long time & load with a bench loader. They take moderate force with the benchtop loader to seat & are accurate.

Recently I took a newer Uberti 1860 & a couple of 1858 Piettas out & had big problems seating the .454's using the attached loading levers on the revolvers. .451's seat easier & still shave a ring of lead. Accuracy is unchanged.

Guess I'll keep the .454's for use in my ROA. The .451's work fine for everything else.

 

[BeoBill]

I've used .451 balls in my Pietta 1851 and 1858 .44s since I bought them, as recommended by Pietta in their manual. That includes spare cylinders as well as OEM. I've never had a problem; both guns make a "lead ring" on loading and shoot consistently. I also found lubed wads = no mess.

 

[robinsroost]

:wink: rightwinger, I also have a Pietta 1858, but mine is stainless. I followed the book and use .451 balls. They shave a nice concentric lead ring. 20 grains of powder is all you need for paper punching. I have used fffg, pyrodex and 777 and they all work fine. I also recommend the use of a felt wad, over the powder and under the ball. Keep yer powder dry.....robin

 

[Paul LaFranco]

Wow I want to thank all you guys for the "education" it's really informative, I greatly appriciate it. I'm sure this info is gonna save me a lot of head scratchin I'm gonna shoot it next week and I' ll make sure I post a range report, the biggest thing I learned is when the black powder comes out, the scale gets put away :wink:
Thanks Much,
Paul

 

[Archangele66]

I have a Pietta 1858 and it's manual says 35 grains of fffG maximum. The Cabelas manual says 15 then in another chart, 35 grains. As for balls, I have both .451 and .454 and the .451 work great and are nice to load where as the larger balls take someone like Mr. Muscle to load. With the .451 balls, I get that little washer of lead when the ball is seated which tells me it is snug in that chamber. I loaded mine with 30 grains of Goex fffG and used #10 Remington caps. It worked flawlessly. Accuracy at 20 yards was excellent. I only use real black powder in my black powder guns. Not sure what the loads would be with a substitute. Oh, my revolver works fine with either #11 or #10 Remington caps. Not sure about other brands like CCi. I plan to buy some CCi just to see how they compare. #10 do fit a little loose, but you can squeeze them a little and then they go on nice and tight. The guns come new with a ton of oil on them so the cylinder needs to be completely cleaned and the nipples need to be cleaned of oil and blown out and dry or the gun will initially experience a lot of misfires. Oil and primer caps do not mix well.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

a .38 spcl case is a good 'plinking' load of 3FF bp. the .357 mag case is a bit more powerful and a 7.62x39 (AK47 round) case is about max and what I use under a Lee mold conical for a powerful load.