Does anyone know how long people rode horses before someone invented the stirrup? It changed the course of warfare.
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Exactly! "It doesn't take a genius" to figure out that if you had something to put your feet in, you could stay on the horse better and wield heavier weapons. But, apparently no one thought of it for how many years of riding horses? No, it doesn't take a genius, just someone to have the idea.Claude said:
How funny. You would think that one of the first comments as it was being developed would have been, "Great idea, but how will people get it open?" Answer: Give them 50 years and they'll figure it out.Trench said:
Black Hand
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Claude said:How funny. You would think that one of the first comments as it was being developed would have been, "Great idea, but how will people get it open?" Answer: Give them 50 years and they'll figure it out.Trench said:
Claude,
It was the high lead content in the food (from the solder) that kept them from figuring it out......
"Time to understand the spirit of this instead of 'well it is NOT in a book' so it does not 'exist' mentality. "
For some groups events this is the standard so this is what one must ee if jopining in the event it has beem said quite often and there is really noting to argue aboput if one does noy like or agtree with the rules find another sandbox.My personal belief is that if tarpage of any sort was used it was probably used in a variety of manners that suited the situation/individual there is just not likley much in the way of records left or even made on many minor things in life at the time.
I saw where the stirrup was a rather late inovation comparitively speaking, I do not recal the age that archeology puts it now I want to say 2nd-3rd century BCE, I wish I had made a note of it as it was not an early item by anymeans considering the length or time the horse has been used for riding.
For some groups events this is the standard so this is what one must ee if jopining in the event it has beem said quite often and there is really noting to argue aboput if one does noy like or agtree with the rules find another sandbox.My personal belief is that if tarpage of any sort was used it was probably used in a variety of manners that suited the situation/individual there is just not likley much in the way of records left or even made on many minor things in life at the time.
I saw where the stirrup was a rather late inovation comparitively speaking, I do not recal the age that archeology puts it now I want to say 2nd-3rd century BCE, I wish I had made a note of it as it was not an early item by anymeans considering the length or time the horse has been used for riding.
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B.H.
No offense taken Mate. Just have seen too many of the period police disagreements to last a lifetime. Just as a Gentleman on this forum put it about people who's documentation is better than his and was teaching the history unfortunately, seems to be the norm. Unless you are affiliated with a museum!!
And the movie industry corrupts more data and history than anything/anybody else.
BTW, the stirrup was invented by the chinese about 300+AD tho the concept was used by India almost 800 years before as to stay on the horse, not for riding as we do today. The horse had been riden for almost 4000 years before. Talk about a learning curve!! :rotf:
Cheers, DonK
No offense taken Mate. Just have seen too many of the period police disagreements to last a lifetime. Just as a Gentleman on this forum put it about people who's documentation is better than his and was teaching the history unfortunately, seems to be the norm. Unless you are affiliated with a museum!!
And the movie industry corrupts more data and history than anything/anybody else.
BTW, the stirrup was invented by the chinese about 300+AD tho the concept was used by India almost 800 years before as to stay on the horse, not for riding as we do today. The horse had been riden for almost 4000 years before. Talk about a learning curve!! :rotf:
Cheers, DonK
After reading everyones posts on this subject I thought I would throw my .2 Cents in. First we cannot be 100% PC/HC because we come from the modern world. I was told at a event that was very "PC" that it didn't matter that my mocs are not 100% (They are now I tanned them myself) and not to worry about it. I was told that unless you rode to the event on a horse from your cabin you cannot be "PC". In this hobby we try to have a good time and go out and live how we THINK our ancestors lived years ago. The truth is we cannot know 100% for sure how they lived and what they used because what we have to go by is vague letters and other written ledgers that we cannot completely piece together the puzzle. Unless we can go back into time we have to do our best to enjoy this hobby. Our ancestors lived this life and we just play the life on our free time. As for the diamond shelter/tarp we use them all the time for events and never had any issues even when we were the only diamond shelter there. I feel that if the people from the past had a piece of tarp/oil cloth they would have used it just like we do today. Another thing to keep in mind is that we are here o have a great time with others who share in our hobby and the "PC Snobs" are actually causing some who cannot afford some of the better items to turn away from the hobby. We try to live a life of the frontier people not for the hobby but to get back to a simpler time and appreciate what we have while reliving a small part of what we perceive as history. Anyway enough of my ranting get your diamond shelter and smoke pole and have some fun just be safe.
I think that's a fact that no one has ever disputed.Monarch said:
We hear that a lot. That and "your rifle is made from modern steel". I think many people try to be as accurate in their portrayals "as possible", knowing the reality of the situation.Monarch said:
I tend to look at it this way. If someone is making a movie, I would not expect the actors to leave their homes in costume and ride horses to the set each day, in an effort to make the film more accurate. But, once on the set, I expect the production company to "strive" to be as historically accurate as "practically possible". Striving for accuracy and quality in any endeavor is to admired, whether you're playing a part or restoring an antique. Pride in workmanship is not lost on those who appreciate it.
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Monarch,
There are 3 general types of people in this hobby:
1)People who know what is PC/HC and do their best to emulate in word, deed and materials what actually was done.
2)People who know what is PC/HC and really don't care.
3)People who are just there to have a good time.
You decide where you fit.
Personally, I fit in #1 and am constantly trying to learn more and improve my kit. This doesn't need to be done all at once, but is a life-time endeavor. As new knowledge comes to light, your impression changes.
#2's - you know who you are and so does every #1. You are usually seen wearing a "Furry animal humping the back of your head" hat, carrying a jug of "Apple pie" and walking around in rubber boots (when it rains). You loudly criticize all the #1s when someone will listen, but never to our faces.
If you fit in #2, don't get upset when people who fit in #1 try to educate others. Admittedly, their approach may not be all that great sometimes, but perhaps it stems from being constantly called "Stitch-counters", "PC Nazis", "PC Snobs", "PC/HC Police", "Librarians", etc. by people in #2. If you sit down with them and ask questions, most of these #1 people will do anything they can to help you get to #1.
The people in #3 are the best off, they don't know (or want to know) any better and probably don't care. They are just there to party and wear funny clothes.
Albert
There are 3 general types of people in this hobby:
1)People who know what is PC/HC and do their best to emulate in word, deed and materials what actually was done.
2)People who know what is PC/HC and really don't care.
3)People who are just there to have a good time.
You decide where you fit.
Personally, I fit in #1 and am constantly trying to learn more and improve my kit. This doesn't need to be done all at once, but is a life-time endeavor. As new knowledge comes to light, your impression changes.
#2's - you know who you are and so does every #1. You are usually seen wearing a "Furry animal humping the back of your head" hat, carrying a jug of "Apple pie" and walking around in rubber boots (when it rains). You loudly criticize all the #1s when someone will listen, but never to our faces.
If you fit in #2, don't get upset when people who fit in #1 try to educate others. Admittedly, their approach may not be all that great sometimes, but perhaps it stems from being constantly called "Stitch-counters", "PC Nazis", "PC Snobs", "PC/HC Police", "Librarians", etc. by people in #2. If you sit down with them and ask questions, most of these #1 people will do anything they can to help you get to #1.
The people in #3 are the best off, they don't know (or want to know) any better and probably don't care. They are just there to party and wear funny clothes.
Albert
Well Black Hand, after seeing the "gotta ride a horse to the "vouse" comment again and most of the other dribble that has been tossed around as basicaly a diversionary tactic to try and nullify what has become the standard of the industry so to speak and can be seen through by most anyone who has even a moderate understanding of the goals and guidlines that are nearly univeraly accepted within reason by anyone in the re-enactment community one has to ask....."Are you smarter than a 5th grader?" many times the response would have to be ...No! and that brings us to the 4th catagory that you left out but I will not bring it to the table here and now as there may very well be some 5th graders monitoring this thread, and I prefer to remain family friendly.I really wish all these PC snobs and PC Police that are around making live miserable for so many folks would show themselves
so I could get a look at one. for me the last 30+ years they have been about as elusive as BigFoot or Elvis :idunno: just my hunble opinion, I am sure some folks probably disagree, and it has been nice knowing them :shocked2:
so I could get a look at one. for me the last 30+ years they have been about as elusive as BigFoot or Elvis :idunno: just my hunble opinion, I am sure some folks probably disagree, and it has been nice knowing them :shocked2:
On the PC aspect. I differ from some. A lot of folks insist that if it is not documented then there is no way to tell if it is pc. That is true- no doubt about it- but on the other hand if something seems apparent then I think there is a gray area. Let's take the typical hunting pouch. Lets say that all the "PC" survivng models have the straps sewn on the back but your pouch has gusset sides and you sew the strap to that. Well, since a hunting pouch was often a home made affair, it would seem to me there is a lot of wiggle room. The "pc" aspect also has a downside. Some guys haul in iron pots, grate works, etc that are pc in the respect they existed- but would something like that be used by a roving longhunter? Tinder tubes come to mind- pc, yes. But were they used in the rocky mountains to any extent?
So, to me at least, I try to get it as close as possible. Itry to keep an open mind (I hope) but I still feel there are gray areas.
So, to me at least, I try to get it as close as possible. Itry to keep an open mind (I hope) but I still feel there are gray areas.
"Some guys haul in iron pots, grate works, etc that are pc in the respect they existed- but would something like that be used by a roving longhunter?'
A very good point and many items are slipped thru then back door via such "documentation" we had a thread a while back about vent liners and they are a good example they were known but it would probably be hard to find one on most colonial guns or trade guns, Samuri swords were pC also but not many frontiers mane used them to clear the land or lift scalps, another biggy to me is taking a PC/HC/traditional concept and retooling with modern technology it so it has a great advantage over the original and claimimg it to be traditional or PC/HC conical bullets, aperture sights are the two biggest offenders we see, as one can ballistically and accuracy wise shoot the equvilant of a 45/70 or 50/110 modern cartridge gun with a 1770 style flintlock rifle. When such an advantage is the result of "upgrades" it crosses the line and is not really in the same category, traditional/PC/HC anymore, yet some folks will argue tooth and nail to rationalize and justify that the upgraded stuff inspite of being better/more efficient is on par with the what was used in the past,I think folks should use whatever they want if legal (which is another topic concerning the modern gear )but should at least be honest as to how it fits into the scheme of things historicaly speaking,for some it seems to be like pulling teeth to say that some of their gear is not traditional, then many will also say that they are not into the historical aspect of the sport in the same breath that they try and make Maxi balls traditional projectiles :idunno:
A very good point and many items are slipped thru then back door via such "documentation" we had a thread a while back about vent liners and they are a good example they were known but it would probably be hard to find one on most colonial guns or trade guns, Samuri swords were pC also but not many frontiers mane used them to clear the land or lift scalps, another biggy to me is taking a PC/HC/traditional concept and retooling with modern technology it so it has a great advantage over the original and claimimg it to be traditional or PC/HC conical bullets, aperture sights are the two biggest offenders we see, as one can ballistically and accuracy wise shoot the equvilant of a 45/70 or 50/110 modern cartridge gun with a 1770 style flintlock rifle. When such an advantage is the result of "upgrades" it crosses the line and is not really in the same category, traditional/PC/HC anymore, yet some folks will argue tooth and nail to rationalize and justify that the upgraded stuff inspite of being better/more efficient is on par with the what was used in the past,I think folks should use whatever they want if legal (which is another topic concerning the modern gear )but should at least be honest as to how it fits into the scheme of things historicaly speaking,for some it seems to be like pulling teeth to say that some of their gear is not traditional, then many will also say that they are not into the historical aspect of the sport in the same breath that they try and make Maxi balls traditional projectiles :idunno:
Ok I would place us into number 1.5 between 1 and 2 and maybe sometimes we are in category 3 depending on our mood that day. All our gear and clothing is 100% PC and ALL HAND MADE but we don't get into personas and trying to tell the story of our life on the frontier. We do educate others on our part of history and what we use during the reenactments and other functions. Our group is a closed group though and we mainly live the skills and do trekking as a group. The open to the public events we do on our own. We do fur trade era, and some F&I with the occasional Rev war stuff if asked. I have a lot of fun with "dressing up" and going into a primitive camp.
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Monarch said:
The difference is that it is not "dressing up" for me. I put on my woods clothes (it is not a costume), grab my gear and go. I put myself in the mind-set of the period and try to think that way. Even around the fire, out conversations tend to be about historical matters, primary source material and improvements that we can make. We even sing period songs.
Had a great trip this weekend and got to help a guy that was with us. We spent half of Saturday and Sunday going through his gear and explaining what needed to be changed if he wanted to do F&I. All of this was initiated by him, and while a bit overwhelmed at first, he listened and learned. He is in his 70s and if he can do it, anyone can.
Ok thats all well and good but if you are 100% of the time serious then whats the point. Me and my husband both put on our woods clothing and go trekking and hunting and also in the "settlement" home we grow gardens and make all our own food like they did in the past. Mostly we are into this hobby to have fun and we can be anal too with our era as he is AMM and I run with a few from WFT so you don't get much more serious than that. Also we belong to a invitation only trekking group who's goal is to recreate the fur trade era and every once in a while help another group do F&I when they need more people for their demos. It is great to help others get into the sport/hobby and we try to help too but only when asked and if we feel the person is open if not we only tell them enough to get them going but if they are serious then we are a open book. Just because I said we like dressing up and having fun around the campfire don't mean we aren't serious.
Well said Monarch, :bow: :hatsoff:
Well said Indeed.
Well said Indeed.
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Monarch said:
You make it seem as if I don't have any fun.
Yes, we are serious about what we do and how we do it, but it doesn't mean we don't have a good time and enjoy it. BUT, there is still a difference between "play-acting" and "living" the experience. We try to live it....
Well, I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, I must say!
I thinks its great that a guy can come on this board and ask a simple question about the acceptability of a diamond shelter at a Vous and in less than two pages have it turned into PC Police vs. The World! (not intended as a personal slight to anyone on either side!)
Now with that said Here is my humble opinions on the subject(s) at hand:
1) even before I got into Living History or "Experimental Archeology" I did survivalist camping. Modern gear, but bare minimum. attached to my rucksack wrapped around a wool blanket (olive drab of course! :grin: ) was usually a blue tarp. On more than one occasion it was turned into a diamond shelter. As a matter of fact it was a technique I learned in the Army after being taught how to make a shelter out of a "shelter half" (half a wedge) not exactly rocket science I know, but thats kind of my point. most of the documention we base this lifestyle/hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is from people who don't mention what they deem "common sense" they generally mention the out-of ordinary or odd to them, sort of thing. so I don't see why I would under any other circumstance have put something like that in my journal (if I bothered to keep one) as my entry would have been more "made camp for the night, location is etc. etc. etc. " I doubt I'd have gone into detail over the exact specifications and dimensions of said camp. :idunno: but thats just me, I guess.
2) the use of a canvas Tipi is quite an arbitrary rule "We" as Living Historian's allow simply because it looks PC/HC as do the walls and the Marqui's etc. and since they are more cost effective I can understand their use over the hide, however as you move out east (where I am) you have to stop and think How Often did people really sleep in these tents on this side of the Miss ? Wartime, sure, NDN Raids as they fled back east? absolutely, but most folks I know aren't doing military persona's, or people fleeing their homes carrying their possesions on their backs.They're weaver's and blacksmiths and longhunters an sech.
Well Longhunters may have brought along a shelter I'm sure, but a full on Marquee with awning, camp Kitchen, eighteen chairs and boxes and a four-poster bed? hrrrmmm.... is it all documentable? absolutely, but to the persona? IIII dunno 'bout that one! so I guess I would have to say whatever makes you happy, I can say that I don't agree and If you ask I will tell you why and explain in detail what would better suit your persona- but only if you ask! but aside from that, I'll just have to turn a blind eye. Because it comes down to personal comfort and how far your willing to go to truly "recreate" your chosen persona.
and that, FINALLY! ( :grin: :rotf: :grin: )
brings me to:
3) Black Hand, I cannot entirely agree with your "3 classes of Rendezvouser" statement since I seem to fit into all three categories in the same breathe! I do try to be as HC/PC as possible and am more than open to learning as much as I can to get better, I make as much is appropriate for my time and place (and skill! :wink: ) but I don't always hit my mark though I am striving to improve all the time!As the old saying goes, "You only get better by playing smarter opponents" well, change the wording slightly (playing = associating, opponents = people) and you kinda get my stance on the PC/HC debate! I might not always be 100% HC/PC and I will admit that there are times when I do say, "If they'da had it, They'da used it!" if only out of frustration (or simple ignorance of the materials!) But I am also there just to wear funny clothes and have a good time with like minded people!(and often enough, the folks I associate with use the term "funny clothes" as a joke) And I can honestly say that some of the best people I have ever met and Could ever want to call friends or Brothers have come from this hobby! so even if I am not always right or up to snuff, I am still in this to learn, and to enjoy myself.
Now feel free to rip into me all you like, as Mark Twain said,"I never let my lack of education stand in the way of my learning" and I'm a high school dropout! :haha:
I thinks its great that a guy can come on this board and ask a simple question about the acceptability of a diamond shelter at a Vous and in less than two pages have it turned into PC Police vs. The World! (not intended as a personal slight to anyone on either side!)
Now with that said Here is my humble opinions on the subject(s) at hand:
1) even before I got into Living History or "Experimental Archeology" I did survivalist camping. Modern gear, but bare minimum. attached to my rucksack wrapped around a wool blanket (olive drab of course! :grin: ) was usually a blue tarp. On more than one occasion it was turned into a diamond shelter. As a matter of fact it was a technique I learned in the Army after being taught how to make a shelter out of a "shelter half" (half a wedge) not exactly rocket science I know, but thats kind of my point. most of the documention we base this lifestyle/hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is from people who don't mention what they deem "common sense" they generally mention the out-of ordinary or odd to them, sort of thing. so I don't see why I would under any other circumstance have put something like that in my journal (if I bothered to keep one) as my entry would have been more "made camp for the night, location is etc. etc. etc. " I doubt I'd have gone into detail over the exact specifications and dimensions of said camp. :idunno: but thats just me, I guess.
2) the use of a canvas Tipi is quite an arbitrary rule "We" as Living Historian's allow simply because it looks PC/HC as do the walls and the Marqui's etc. and since they are more cost effective I can understand their use over the hide, however as you move out east (where I am) you have to stop and think How Often did people really sleep in these tents on this side of the Miss ? Wartime, sure, NDN Raids as they fled back east? absolutely, but most folks I know aren't doing military persona's, or people fleeing their homes carrying their possesions on their backs.They're weaver's and blacksmiths and longhunters an sech.
Well Longhunters may have brought along a shelter I'm sure, but a full on Marquee with awning, camp Kitchen, eighteen chairs and boxes and a four-poster bed? hrrrmmm.... is it all documentable? absolutely, but to the persona? IIII dunno 'bout that one! so I guess I would have to say whatever makes you happy, I can say that I don't agree and If you ask I will tell you why and explain in detail what would better suit your persona- but only if you ask! but aside from that, I'll just have to turn a blind eye. Because it comes down to personal comfort and how far your willing to go to truly "recreate" your chosen persona.
and that, FINALLY! ( :grin: :rotf: :grin: )
brings me to:
3) Black Hand, I cannot entirely agree with your "3 classes of Rendezvouser" statement since I seem to fit into all three categories in the same breathe! I do try to be as HC/PC as possible and am more than open to learning as much as I can to get better, I make as much is appropriate for my time and place (and skill! :wink: ) but I don't always hit my mark though I am striving to improve all the time!As the old saying goes, "You only get better by playing smarter opponents" well, change the wording slightly (playing = associating, opponents = people) and you kinda get my stance on the PC/HC debate! I might not always be 100% HC/PC and I will admit that there are times when I do say, "If they'da had it, They'da used it!" if only out of frustration (or simple ignorance of the materials!) But I am also there just to wear funny clothes and have a good time with like minded people!(and often enough, the folks I associate with use the term "funny clothes" as a joke) And I can honestly say that some of the best people I have ever met and Could ever want to call friends or Brothers have come from this hobby! so even if I am not always right or up to snuff, I am still in this to learn, and to enjoy myself.
Now feel free to rip into me all you like, as Mark Twain said,"I never let my lack of education stand in the way of my learning" and I'm a high school dropout! :haha:
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