patch thickness question

[cynthialee]

How do I find out how thick a piece of cloth is?

buying pre lubed patches is nice and all but from what I have read, they become useless after awhile

So I was thinking that some of the fabric scraps from the sewing room might do the trick. But I do not want to use something that is going to be to thick to get the ball down the barrel.

I have alot of quilters cotton and some kona cotton, left over from my honeys' sewing projects. I was hopeing maybe this cloth would work. Any ideas how thick they tend to be?

 

[Zonie]

I use some dial calipers to measure patch material.

If you aren't familiar with them take a look at this link

http://compare.ebay.com/like/180931667818?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

These measure thicknesses or outside dimensions, inside dimensions and depths to an accuracy of .001 (one thousandths of an inch).

Normally the outside or thickness measurement is done right at the tips which have a very narrow width to them but this almost knife like feature can easily crush cloth giving a lot of variation in the reading.

I've found that using the flat area back towards the body is less likely to crush the material.

In any case, the user must feel the drag or resistance of the caliper jaws on whatever it is measuring to get a good reading.
There will be some drag but not a lot. It's difficult to explain in words.

There are electronic versions of the calipers at most auto supply stores and although they are accurate and inexpensive (if you call $20 inexpensive) my biggest complaint with them is the damn battery usually goes dead just when I want to use them.

As to how thick a patch should be? IMO that depends on the type of gun, the depth of the rifling grooves, the size of the ball and the phase of the moon.

Well, maybe the phase of the moon isn't that important but the patch has to do several important jobs.

It must seal the bore and this includes the rifling grooves. This is especially important with heavy powder loads in a rifle. Less important in a pistol.
When wrapped around the ball its thickness must be equal to the the rifling groove diameter or preferably, a little larger.

It must be somewhat compressible because the lands between the rifling, being smaller, will need to compress the material or it will be impossible to load.

It must transmit the rotation of the rifling to the ball as it is fired.
This usually isn't a problem if the depth of the rifling creates a need for a fairly thick patch but in barrels with very shallow rifling it could be a problem. (I don't want to get into a "skipping the rifling" debate but IMO rifling depths shallower than .003 often shoot very poorly unless the patch is a very tight fit.)

This transmitting power thing in my opinion also requires a tight weave to the material.
I've seen loose weave patches end up as flying threads as they settle to the ground after they were shot.

It must be able to withstand the heat of the burning powder. Some synthetic materials (and silk) tend to vaporize from the blast.

 

[necchi]

Ya need ya a tool called a
Dial Caliper. http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-dial-caliper-66541.html
Can be bought, begged, borrowed or stolen. :wink:

Zonie beat me too it,

 

[nchawkeye]

I never measure mine...I've used .010, .015, 018, and .020 through the years so I've got a good idea as to how thick they are...I just buy what feels right and use it...

 

I never measure mine...I've used .010, .015, 018, and .020 through the years so I've got a good idea as to how thick they are...I just buy what feels right and use it...

Ah! Another devotee of the thumb and forefinger caliper.
Seriously though, is it just my imagination, or does the washing to remove the sizing increase the thickness just a tad?

 

[Nappers]

It does.

When I wash my pillow ticking, it makes it around 15-18 go to 22-23th. I wash and dry twice then cut it up.

I use a .497 ball and 22-23 pillow tick, works great in my gun.

 

[Big John]

While patch thickness is surely important, patch tread tightness and lube are equally important. Most sewing material will not be suitable.

 

[roger fisher]

I say take some various samples to the range and give them a try. Just make sure to inspect your patches after they hae been fired. If they are burnt through using a using a mild to moderate load , they are too thin. And if you have trouble getting them started then they are too thick. Anyway thats my scientific formula! Works well for me. I know a young fella comes to our shoots and whips everybody , one day hes usin an old t shirt for patching the next, pillow tick then mabey precut,. Whatever he can get his hands on, just expierament, thats half the fun of muzzleloading, at least in my opinion. :v

 

[BrownBear]

How do I find out how thick a piece of cloth is?

There may a bit of a surprise waiting for you. At least there was for me. New-on-the-bolt fabric measures different that it does after you wash it and run it through the drier, as you will before shooting. It's not a big difference, but it's more compressible after washing and drying.

The point behind telling you that is to remind you that it should be washed before use to get rid of any sizing. The sizing raises cob with lube retention as well as being stiffer and harder to use in general.

Not a problem since you're evaluating scraps you already own. But I'd be sure to wash it before use, and probably before using calipers to measure.

One other factor, as long as I'm building a factor list for you: Age and wear on bores. In my experience a new bore is likely to ask for a little thinner patch, but after you get a 200-300 shots through it, you can likely improve accuracy going to alittle thicker patch material. New or little-used bores tend to be a little rougher, and use smooths them a lot and eases loading and use of thicker patches. And you'll get better accuracy as well, in my experience.

I couldn't even start .530/.018 in a new GPR for example, and had to cuss a bit with .530/.015. A couple of hundred shots downrange, and it started seeming awfully easy to start. Tried .530/.018 again and it started fine while cutting groups in half. At something over 3,000 downrange I'm now using .535/.018. I'd be happier with something like .530/.022 just cuzz I like thicker patches, but since I bought a whole bolt of .018" ticking when Chinamart closed it's fabric department here in town, I need to do a lot more shooting before I can move on.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Get a copy of Dutch Schoults black powder accuracy system. Best spend $15 you will ever spend.

After reading about his system you will learn that the compression of the patch is the important part. You can have two different patches that read the same with a dial calipers but one won't go down the barrel with out a hammer.

 

[ihuntsnook]

Good advice. Learned a lot in a few minutes, and Dutch's system works. The reason it works is because it takes variables out of the equation.

 

[Rev_William]

Not sure of the thickness but I'm using left over pillow ticking red striped and blue stripped that I have used as lining in some vests I made. got 2 yds of each for 2 bucks a yard on close out at joannes. the scrap has lasted me about 2 yrs so far and I still have about 2" wide x 6 ft long scraps left. greased up they look just like the prelube you were talking about.

 

[pripley]

I purchased some pre-lubed round patches that were identified as .018". After great and awful range days, I returned to Dutch :bow: for insight and got out the micrometer to measure this store bought stuff. :shocked2: These patches measured from .013" to .018" in pretty equal .001" increments. I am new and slowly coming along with Dutch's advice. I am learning that patch thickness makes a big difference and you need to know what you are using and control the variation. :2 Don't trust the labels on pre-packaged, commercial patch material.

 

[izzyjoe]

you need to get a micrometer, dial calipers will not work well for this. if you have some old blue jean's just use the front pocket's that stuff works pretty well. year's ago i'd go to yardsales and by old bluejean's just for that. precut patches are a pain to center. if you have a fabric store close you could look and see what they have, you want a tight weave, high tread count fabric that is not to think. pillow ticking is very popular for this, but it varies in thickness, you can also use cotton twill. what ever you use make sure that it's 100% cotton, and wash it a few times to remove the starch, i let mine air dry, cause the dryer seem's to fluff it up to much.

 

[Bill Hall]

Here's my perspective on patch thickness. I really don't care what the measurement of of the cloth is, I only care if I can reproduce that same thickness when I buy cloth again. I use a cheap set of digital calipers to measure the cloth. It may not be the precise measurement in thousandths of an inch, but it will measure the same every time. So if I measure a piece of cloth, and my cheapo calipers say .019, and another guy measures it with a properly calibrated micrometer and gets .015, I don't care. His measurement is probably more correct, but as long as I can go to the cloth store and find a bolt that measures .019 with my calipers, I'm good. For me, measuring the thickness of cloth is just a way to ensure I get the same thickness every time, no matter what actual number that thickness may be.

I hope that makes sense. Bill

 

[Rat Trapper]

Here's my perspective on patch thickness. I really don't care what the measurement of of the cloth is, I only care if I can reproduce that same thickness when I buy cloth again. I use a cheap set of digital calipers to measure the cloth. It may not be the precise measurement in thousandths of an inch, but it will measure the same every time. So if I measure a piece of cloth, and my cheapo calipers say .019, and another guy measures it with a properly calibrated micrometer and gets .015, I don't care. His measurement is probably more correct, but as long as I can go to the cloth store and find a bolt that measures .019 with my calipers, I'm good. For me, measuring the thickness of cloth is just a way to ensure I get the same thickness every time, no matter what actual number that thickness may be.

I hope that makes sense. Bill

I think you need to read Dutch's system. In it he talks about going out and doing what you posted only to find he couldn't load it without using a hammer. You need to know what the compressed thickness is and a dial caliper won't do it.

 

[izzyjoe]

i'll 2nd that! i found that some material will compress more than other's. no matter what it mic's at,you don't know till you compress it.

 

[mooman76]

Before I had something to measure with I just took a variety of samples and tried each to see what worked best and that's what I went with. The rest ended up being cleaning patches and rags.