Patch over powder technique question

[user 16256]

When double patching I always ram home the over powder wad, then seat the projectile.
An over powder wad provides a better gas seal to prevent gas jetting around the PRB. If you've ever walked up and seen a smoldering patch from your rifle, you'll benefit from an over powder wad. The patch around the ball in a rifle is to provide spin for stability. It does not make a perfect or efficient gas seal. You'll get higher velocities and better more consistent accuracy with an over powder wad, be it wasp nest, felt, corn meal, COW, or a piece of an old holey sock. When the shot counts I've always use this method of loading. As a bonus, COW and corn meal scrub the bore with each shot making loading the next easier.

 

[Des52]

There are reasons to use a over powder wad, card, or corn meal. I use one with maxi balls and other conicals to stop gas cutting the base. Greatly improved accuracy. You don't want a lubed wad with a wet patch the idea is to protect the powder from a wet patch. If your gun shoots with just a good lubed patch fine but some guns may need something between. And I have found that with a patch under my mini balls I can reduce the powder charge.

 

[Toscano]

If you want to win in the beef shoots, or bring home the venison, I’d do anything to get excellent results. Redcoats? Just need to hit anywhere on them to slow them down. If any redcoats show up, I’ll have my 1911……

1911? Too close! 6.5 x 55 drops em as they come into view!

 

[Bad Karma]

This is a new idea to me. Been shooting m/lers for over 1/2 century , and never heard of putting a patch on the powder charge , then seating a the patched round ball on top. What on earth advantage , would that operation render useful ?? If you have the correct diameter lead ball , and the correct thickness patch , properly lubricated , the gun should be easy to load , and give some level of acceptable accuracy.

I’ve done this with the idea of protecting the patch from burning through and as an aid in achieving useful accuracy. Sometimes a wool wad worked in its place. I’ve also used a small golf ball sized piece of raw sheeps wool. All three techniques have successfully worked to provide the acceptable level of accuracy, often a rifle will like one but not the others. Particularly the wad or ball of wool worked very well under bore sized bullets either paper patched or grease grooved. At a guess I would say I’ve done this with every rifle I’ve had since Sam Fadala clued me into it. I don’t continue the practice if it’s unnecessary.

 

[64Springer]

I had no idea what the OP was driving at with his patch under a patched ball theory.

As a seal it makes sense.

I'm wondering if a wad would compress and widen to create a seal under a Lee REAL bullet when the trigger is pulled.

Cuzz I don't think those REALS have a 100% seal when rammed home.

When I finally get around to ordering a Traditions Frontier rifle in 1:48, I'll give it a shot. Never owned a 1:48. Or a half stock rifle.

 

[Bad Karma]

I had no idea what the OP was driving at with his patch under a patched ball theory.

As a seal it makes sense.

I'm wondering if a wad would compress and widen to create a seal under a Lee REAL bullet when the trigger is pulled.

Cuzz I don't think those REALS have a 100% seal when rammed home.

When I finally get around to ordering a Traditions Frontier rifle in 1:48, I'll give it a shot. Never owned a 1:48. Or a half stock rifle.

I try wads or cards under any bullet. Sometimes one works but not the other. Sometimes neither works better than just a powder and bullet. With ball I try under ball patch, wad or wool. Cards usually work very well under bore sized or close bullets. Example is a target bullet for a .45 caliber rifle might be sized exactly bore size or a thousandth or two under. The card, .465” by .030 or .060” fiber in these cases, seals well enough until the bullets bump up into the rifling.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

I’m my simple opinion- the patch, leather wad, cream of wheat, wool wad, ect, protects the patch around the ball, keeps the patch lube intact, and gives a more complete combustion to the black powder charge, and you can use a little less powder. I know when I first tried cream of wheat, there was more of a kick with my normal charge of 80 grains.I dropped it to 70 grains, and got the same accuracy and point of impact.

More kick, yep that's because you increase the weight of the projectile(s).
The little pinch of cream of wheat might not weigh much it will make a difference.

 

[M. De Land]

I think it's more of a technique to keep in the "tool bag" for when you run across a gun that may benefit from it. I have one that likes a dose of corn meal over the powder before the patched ball is run down. There's a tight spot just behind the wedding band and that moves the powder column up closer to the tight spot and reduces vertical dispersion.

Your barrel needs a lead lapping then to nix the tight spot ! Tight spots generally induce gas blow by when the barrel opens up again as the ball gets past it. Then again a tight spot can mean slag inclusion has opened up in the bore or a rifling cutter buggered the groove or land in that spot. Usually the patch will show this with a shred, tear or gas cut holes.

 

[Mulebrain]

If you use the right load, patch and ball you don't have to do anything else!

50yds with flintlock off hand! Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, work on your off hand shooting. Zero in your rifle properly and get to work on you!

Not my target by the way, but an example of what can be done with standard loading procedures.

 

[IanH]

Your barrel needs a lead lapping then to nix the tight spot ! Tight spots generally induce gas blow by when the barrel opens up again as the ball gets past it. Then again a tight spot can mean slag inclusion has opened up in the bore or a rifling cutter buggered the groove or land in that spot. Usually the patch will show this with a shred, tear or gas cut holes.

Smoothie. Reamed out the tight spot and polished the bore again with a 280 silly-con-targlide ball hone sweated onto a brass rod. Tight patch now good to go.

 

[M. De Land]

Smoothie. Reamed out the tight spot and polished the bore again with a 280 silly-con-targlide ball hone sweated onto a brass rod. Tight patch now good to go.

View attachment 249085

Roger that, boy that was a real tight spot ! I have the same set of reamers I

 

[stikshooter]

More kick, yep that's because you increase the weight of the projectile(s).
The little pinch of cream of wheat might not weigh much it will make a difference.

Nope just stops gas cutting ,increases velocity as in less or no blow by . Easy to prove if you own a chrono ,use it
and with patched ball /conical the base steers the bullet so protecting the base (usually pure )is extremely important to get the most accuracy the rifle/shooter can manage ,that's why it's used !! And if your patched ball is torn /smolders (again) it's that pesty gas cutting/blow by , cause a faulty patch /lube selection will
ruin accuracy . Other than a few seconds more of time there's no downside and lots of reasons too ./Ed

 

[ETipp]

More kick, yep that's because you increase the weight of the projectile(s).
The little pinch of cream of wheat might not weigh much it will make a difference.

I disagree. Its not due to increasing the weight of the projectile(s). Where did he contend he used a heavier ball? Cream of wheat will not make any noticeable difference in projectile(s) weight.

It was due to a more efficient seal, thus no blow by of the burned gasses.

 

[bpd303]

I use Kapok dampened with spit as an over powder wad. Does three things, wipes the bore when rammed down over the powder, gives consistent powder compression and makes a gas seal so the patch doesn't burn through. I get higher velocity (choreographed) and better accuracy.

 

[Bad Karma]

Just came across this product on the BACO website. I may try it if it’s available soon.

“Puff-Lon is a lubricating ballistic filler. Testing of Puff-Lon has shown: An increase in the accuracy of any flat base bullets with black powder or smokeless powders. Replaces wads and gaschecks. Isolates grease wads. An increase in the longevity of a firearm. A decrease of the total maintenance of a firearm. Increases in accuracy on cartridges with large air spaces such as black powder cartridges loaded with smokeless powder and sub-sonic rifle ammunition. Greatly cut down throat erosion. More reliable cycling of gas operated automatics especially with reduced loads. Ending first round-pop in some suppressors. Works with manual or automated powder dispensers.
Contains 500cc of Volume, approximately 7,700 Grains.”

“
CUSTOMER REVIEWS

1. excellent product
   Quality
   100%
   Value
   100%
   Price
   100%
   I have used this product in 45-70 BP loads in a Springfield Trapdoor. I find it convenient to use since I don't need to calculate the amount of filler and no need for a wad. I have put up to 100 rounds through without cleaning. I use a blow tube, but I'm not certain that it is needed or helps. I find that four or five fouling shots are needed at the start, but the rifle will remain accurate all day. After swabbing with solvent the fourth patch will come out clean. (nice bore in that old gun) I intend to try it with light loads in smokeless. I suspect that it will work well. Highly recommended product.
   Review by Spin Drifter
   Posted on 2/6/23”
   
   

 

[hanshi]

The weight of what comes from a muzzle DOES affect recoil more than a charge of more powder. This is why a .45/70 recoils more than a 4,000 fps bullet from a .220 Swift.

I've always used an over powder wad - leather, felt, paper - for my first shot of the day at deer. When I reload in the bush I load sans the op wad. I've used my chronograph a lot comparing with and without an op wad. The velocity has always increased and usually the accuracy. At the range I simply seat a wadded ball of toilet paper (cheap and available) as the op wad and save my cut wads for more serious shots. It doesn't burn and keeps the patch from smoldering, although I can't recall actually seeing one smoldering. That first shot in the bush is the most important one of the day. It does no harm when you seat an op wad and fire it and also does no harm if you skip the process.