Patch over powder technique question

[Toscano]

In my trying the patch over powder I did find more accuracy and consistency of point of impact. That being said, I was wondering about different techniques. I was placing the patch into the barrel only the depth of the short starter and then ramming my patched ball home. Is there any reason, that anyone is aware of, to not place the patch over powder all the way down onto the powder? It seemed that with the short ram It made ramming the patched ball down for powder compression a bit more difficult. Any insight to this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[64Springer]

Following.

 

[UndeadPoet]

I ran into a problem with my .45 cal Pedersoli Pennsylvania Dixie rifle. It is a little tight, and I use a .440 ball and .10 patch. When I didn’t push the .10 powder patch all the way to the bottom, and then rammed the PRB down, it basically jammed like I had double-patched the ball (ie, .20 patch). I didn’t have my range rod with me, so had to wait until I got home to be able to ram the ball and both patches down the barrel. It was really jammed tight. I think I have successfully done the method with the short starter on a different rifle, but I would recommend going ahead and running the patch (or felt wad) all the way down to the powder to avoid getting your ball stuck up your barrel, if you are not sure. It isn’t worth the aggravation.

 

[oldramrod]

I use a thin leather over powder wad and push it all of the way down before loading the prb.

 

[Sam squanch]

Try a little bit of cream of wheat cereal over the powder charge. Did this with a pitted new englander, one hole groups at 50 yards!

 

[oldwood]

This is a new idea to me. Been shooting m/lers for over 1/2 century , and never heard of putting a patch on the powder charge , then seating a the patched round ball on top. What on earth advantage , would that operation render useful ?? If you have the correct diameter lead ball , and the correct thickness patch , properly lubricated , the gun should be easy to load , and give some level of acceptable accuracy.

 

[Sam squanch]

I’m my simple opinion- the patch, leather wad, cream of wheat, wool wad, ect, protects the patch around the ball, keeps the patch lube intact, and gives a more complete combustion to the black powder charge, and you can use a little less powder. I know when I first tried cream of wheat, there was more of a kick with my normal charge of 80 grains.I dropped it to 70 grains, and got the same accuracy and point of impact.

 

[Toscano]

This is a new idea to me. Been shooting m/lers for over 1/2 century , and never heard of putting a patch on the powder charge , then seating a the patched round ball on top. What on earth advantage , would that operation render useful ?? If you have the correct diameter lead ball , and the correct thickness patch , properly lubricated , the gun should be easy to load , and give some level of acceptable accuracy.

I guess "acceptable " accuracy is the key word. With all due respect to your experience, I don't know what ballistic advantage this technique renders but, in my case, it gave me a consistant group and improved accuracy. Without changing any loading factor. Same powder, same charge, same patch under the ball.

 

[IanH]

I think it's more of a technique to keep in the "tool bag" for when you run across a gun that may benefit from it. I have one that likes a dose of corn meal over the powder before the patched ball is run down. There's a tight spot just behind the wedding band and that moves the powder column up closer to the tight spot and reduces vertical dispersion.

 

[stikshooter]

This is a new idea to me. Been shooting m/lers for over 1/2 century , and never heard of putting a patch on the powder charge , then seating a the patched round ball on top. What on earth advantage , would that operation render useful ?? If you have the correct diameter lead ball , and the correct thickness patch , properly lubricated , the gun should be easy to load , and give some level of acceptable accuracy.

Kinda like wearing a seat belt , never needed one till I needed one ! If you overcharge the ball using the wrong patch and it fails you get to see the buck from the wrong end . It is added insurance when needed ,unless you've never made a mistake in powder (selection) amount /bore a little iffy/patch wrong/rotten or a combination of all .
If the shot matters hunting or competition (mine does ) an added component (I use a (Dura felt wad )over the powder is cheap insurance
(like the seat belt) and gives higher velocity/accuracy consistency ,again easy to prove with a chrono . /Ed

 

[kyron4]

Try a little bit of cream of wheat cereal over the powder charge. Did this with a pitted new englander, one hole groups at 50 yards!

I have seen the same thing done with corn meal and accuracy was night and day.

 

[kyron4]

I've been planning on trying out a lubed felt wad over powder then PRB. As soon as the damp heat passes, I'll give it a try and report back.

 

[necchi]

it gave me a consistant group and improved accuracy. Without changing any loading factor. Same powder, same charge, same patch under the ball.

Interesting, I follow what your saying.
An olde school angle to consider,,
The added patch your using helps protect the patched/round/ball (PRB) from the heat and compression of the load,,
My first thoughts would be my original PRB combo isn't working. I'd be thinking to change the thickness/weave of the fabric I'm using as patch, and experiment with the lube properties variable. If you get those right there is really no need for an over-powder buffer or wad at all.
It eliminates the extra step you taking,,
What kind of charge are you using(?) What/how are you shooting?

p.s. to your original question, what your doing is alright,, there is a risk of it bunching,, but you'll be able to feel that sending the PRB home, wad-up your over powder patch a bit before ya drop it in,,

 

[Johnny Tremain]

For 100s of years powder, patch & ball have worked just fine.
Now all the modern folk want to reinvent the ways of doing thing.
Dont use a short starter, never have to, I press it in with my fingers
and ram it down.
I use .440 ball and a .15 cotton patch. The Rice barrel shootem better than I do.

 

[ETipp]

Interesting, I follow what your saying.
An olde school angle to consider,,
The added patch your using helps protect the patched/round/ball (PRB) from the heat and compression of the load,,
My first thoughts would be my original PRB combo isn't working. I'd be thinking to change the thickness/weave of the fabric I'm using as patch, and experiment with the lube properties variable. If you get those right there is really no need for an over-powder buffer or wad at all.
It eliminates the extra step you taking,,
What kind of charge are you using(?) What/how are you shooting?

p.s. to your original question, what your doing is alright,, there is a risk of it bunching,, but you'll be able to feel that sending the PRB home, wad-up your over powder patch a bit before ya drop it in,,

Exactly my thoughts. In fact, I made a similar thread on this subject last month. Unless a particular ML has some issues, it seems logical that a proper thickness shooting patch, properly lubed with optimal lube, and made out of durable enough material to ascertain little to no damage upon firing, should suffice just fine.

Also, as you contend, it adds an additional step to the loading process.

 

[ETipp]

For 100s of years powder, patch & ball have worked just fine.
Now all the modern folk want to reinvent the ways of doing thing.
Dont use a short starter, never have to, I press it in with my fingers
and ram it down.
I use .440 ball and a .15 cotton patch. The Rice barrel shootem better than I do.

Agreed, Johnny on most of that.

However, I happen to have one ML (Lyman GPR) that you will not start the PRB down the barrel with just fingers. Yet I have another ML that the PRB is easily started with fingers.

I am considering coning the barrel on the GPR.

 

[Packrat]

Like Johnnie said, it's been Powder4 Patch Ball for centurys, why change it. IMO if you are a target shooter and have all day to shot, try anything you want, If the red Coats are after you, better stixk to tried and true

 

[Maven]

All, Sam Fadala advocated the use of an over powder patch for guns whose bores burned or shredded patches. He also mentioned hornet nests for the same reason. I think with little attention to patch material and thickness + powder charge, and bore polishing, you wouldn't need the extra patch or hornet nest.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Like Johnnie said, it's been Powder4 Patch Ball for centurys, why change it. IMO if you are a target shooter and have all day to shot, try anything you want, If the red Coats are after you, better stixk to tried and true

Well that is assuming that they would've mentioned the procedure if they were doing it, and we KNOW that a lot of what was actually done was often not mentioned in journals when the person documenting the activity thought it was obvious.

OH and if you're being chased by Redcoats you don't patch, you drop the ball directly onto the powder, even with a rifle..., same is true for being chased by Indians..., that's how Wetzel and Kenton were able to run and turn and fire and run and turn and fire....,

All, Sam Fadala advocated the use of an over powder patch for guns whose bores burned or shredded patches. He also mentioned hornet nests for the same reason. I think with little attention to patch material and thickness + powder charge, and bore polishing, you wouldn't need the extra patch or hornet nest.

Right. As muzzleloader barrels age, sometimes one gets pitting, and sometimes when one has inherited or bought a used rifle, again, you have pitting. Adding a patch sometimes prevents the gasses from the burning powder from further damaging a patch that was only slightly damaged by pits when loaded..., or a layer of grits or corn meal often places the patched round ball in a position where it is seated but is now above the damaged barrel area, and thus the patch is not damaged during loading.

LD

 

[Sam squanch]

If you want to win in the beef shoots, or bring home the venison, I’d do anything to get excellent results. Redcoats? Just need to hit anywhere on them to slow them down. If any redcoats show up, I’ll have my 1911……