Ottoman Guns

[hawkeye2]

What would have been the origins of this lock?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Hawkeye

Your lock is from an Algerian musket. And very common to the style. It's believed that part of this lock design comes from very early Spanish miquelet locks dating as far back as the mid-17th century. While there are 2 0r 3 different lock "plates" your's is the most common seen today. However, the mainspring on these Algerian locks operate off the toe of the hammer (ala Italian style) versus the heel of the hammer like Spanish and most other Mid-East style miquelet locks. That small hole on the lock plate just behind the dog catch is where the return spring for the dog catch was originally mounted but now missing (they often are). On the bottom edge of the lock plate or bottom of the mainspring there is often Arabic writing showing the date the lock was made and occasionally a maker's mark. These locks could have been made anywhere from about 1700-1850. LOL These locks have very strong mainsprings, and almost never fail to spark. But they chew up flints very quickly. Hope this helps.

Here is a pic of a typical Algerian musket using this lock:

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Hi Hawkeye

Your lock is from an Algerian musket. And very common to the style. It's believed that part of this lock design comes from very early Spanish miquelet locks dating as far back as the mid-17th century. While there are 2 0r 3 different lock "plates" your's is the most common seen today. However, the mainspring on these Algerian locks operate off the toe of the hammer (ala Italian style) versus the heel of the hammer like Spanish and most other Mid-East style miquelet locks. That small hole on the lock plate just behind the dog catch is where the return spring for the dog catch was originally mounted but now missing (they often are). On the bottom edge of the lock plate or bottom of the mainspring there is often Arabic writing showing the date the lock was made and occasionally a maker's mark. These locks could have been made anywhere from about 1700-1850. LOL These locks have very strong mainsprings, and almost never fail to spark. But they chew up flints very quickly. Hope this helps.

Here is a pic of a typical Algerian musket using this lock:

Rick
View attachment 170735View attachment 170736View attachment 170737View attachment 170738

I am sure you probably hate hearing this by now, but the depth of your collection of original pieces AND replicas is incredible and very enviable.

 

[rickystl]

A period photo showing both an Algerian musket and pistol...

 

[cyten]

Rick, that miquelet is great example! I haven't seen that style of engraving on these before, very interesting! And I agree that Hawkeye's lock comes from Algeria from what I believe is referred to as a "Kabyle" gun. This is named after the Berber nomads who came from the Kabylia province in northern Algeria. Something that would be typically seen in action against the USA during the Barbary Wars.

 

[cyten]

A friend in Turkey just sent me this the other day. The photo comes from İnegöl, a city in the province of Bursa from 1900

 

[rickystl]

Rick, that miquelet is great example! I haven't seen that style of engraving on these before, very interesting! And I agree that Hawkeye's lock comes from Algeria from what I believe is referred to as a "Kabyle" gun. This is named after the Berber nomads who came from the Kabylia province in northern Algeria. Something that would be typically seen in action against the USA during the Barbary Wars.

Hi Cyten

Thanks for the kind comment. Yes, this one is exceptional. And there is a real mystery behind it. The story is almost worth a Thread in itself. LOL

Yes, Kabyle is a common term referred to these Algerian muskets. I've read that after France took control of Algeria around 1830 that the locals were not allowed to own the latest in firearms technology. That is likely the reason you can find locks dated at least through the 3rd quarter of the 19th century.

Here is a more plain example that was restored to shooting condition. It has a Hoyt liner in the barrel and is now .55 caliber. These can be difficult to shoot off-hand due to the stock's short LOP. Usually only about 11". But fun none the less. And an original Algerian powder flask and ball pouches likely used with these guns.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

A friend in Turkey just sent me this the other day. The photo comes from İnegöl, a city in the province of Bursa from 1900
View attachment 171813

Great photo. Shows the typical assortment of weapons carried. As we know, pistols were often carried in pairs. So you would think that even more identical pairs would survive today than we actually see. But I could also speculate that a matching pair were likely separated through time and one of each now resides with two different owners. But the owners don't know one another. LOL.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Great gun and accoutrements! I believe your lock is engraved with "OMAR", at least according to my Iranian neighbor. Couldn't make out the rest of the writing, whether there was a date or not.

The pair of pistols on the left and right of the photo appear to be matching with eachother, at least from the ball butts. But I imagine they get split over time, perhaps being sold off or being split among sons etc. There is a gentleman in Greece who makes reproductions of these period guns, mostly Greek and Albanian styled. Here are some matching pistols

 

[rickystl]

Here is a better example of a lock signature on the bottom of many Algerian miquelet locks. Along with the silver decoration, there is what appears to be a clear signature of the lock maker as well as a date. Maybe your neighbor can read this ?

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Also, what appears to be a European stamp on the barrel of an Algerian musket. Can't identify.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Cyten: That photo of four Albanian rat-tail style pistols is great. Wonder if the maker has a website ? The quality of his work looks wonderful, and very authentic. I wonder if the locks are original or high quality replicas ? Amazing someone is still making these. Thanks for posting.

Rick

 

[cyten]

Cyten: That photo of four Albanian rat-tail style pistols is great. Wonder if the maker has a website ? The quality of his work looks wonderful, and very authentic. I wonder if the locks are original or high quality replicas ? Amazing someone is still making these. Thanks for posting.

Rick

This was my first question as well, I've been in contact with gentleman who makes them and he has told me they are newly manufactured by him! However, he stated they are not functional. I'm wondering what it would take to make them work. His website mostly deals in Greek national costumes but also reproduction muzzleloaders from the region (Kariophili/Tancica/Arnautka/Pistols) www.konaki.gr

Here is a better example of a lock signature on the bottom of many Algerian miquelet locks. Along with the silver decoration, there is what appears to be a clear signature of the lock maker as well as a date. Maybe your neighbor can read this ?

Rick

I'll ask my neighbor about the markings when I see him next. But for me, the date appears to be 1277 which converted to the Gregorian calendar is 1860. But better to have another take a look, I just know the numbers!

 

[cyten]

I put together a visual reference of the common types of miquelet locks that were made in the Ottoman Empire.

And a more interesting (in my eyes) but redundant reference with a map

 

[Barud]

Found a beauty in a local auction (images below). Currently going for approximately 1600 dollars, plus %20 buyers' premium. Seems like it's in surprisingly good condition for what's usually found in Istanbul (After seeing things like Belgian back action percussion locks on Turkish muskets, one tends to lower his standards) 1600 dollars is quite the money here in Turkey, but honestly I might still take my chance with it. Would you guys say it's worth it? Anything that you notice about it?

I put together a visual reference of the common types of miquelet locks that were made in the Ottoman Empire.

Wonderful job!

Also, what appears to be a European stamp on the barrel of an Algerian musket. Can't identify.

Could be British or Belgian. I recall reading an account of British trade ships carrying musket barrels and sword blades to the Ottomans getting intercepted in the Mediterranean by... the Maltese? I can't recall. An Ottoman sword with a British blade is something I've never seen, unfortunately. I wonder if there are any extant examples.

 

[cyten]

Found a beauty in a local auction (images below). Currently going for approximately 1600 dollars, plus %20 buyers' premium. Seems like it's in surprisingly good condition for what's usually found in Istanbul (After seeing things like Belgian back action percussion locks on Turkish muskets, one tends to lower his standards) 1600 dollars is quite the money here in Turkey, but honestly I might still take my chance with it. Would you guys say it's worth it? Anything that you notice about it?

Wow, that is nice, clean example! And it is dated to the 18th century, 1778 (1192 hijri) Only downside is missing the 2nd buttstock piece. As for price, I cant say much. The few I've seen for sale are $2000 and up and range in condition. Rick has a better idea of the pricing on these. But it's all relative i suppose

 

[Rudyard]

Wow, that is nice, clean example! And it is dated to the 18th century, 1778 (1192 hijri) Only downside is missing the 2nd buttstock piece. As for price, I cant say much. The few I've seen for sale are $2000 and up and range in condition. Rick has a better idea of the pricing on these. But it's all relative i suppose

What seems odd is there are no capucines /bands still a nice piece . Rudyard

 

[cyten]

What seems odd is there are no capucines /bands still a nice piece . Rudyard

Yes that is odd too, though some very early examples dont have them.

 

[Rudyard]

Yes that is odd too, though some very early examples dont have them.

Then how where to held There dose look like it had one once All interesting
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

I put together a visual reference of the common types of miquelet locks that were made in the Ottoman Empire.
View attachment 172648

And a more interesting (in my eyes) but redundant reference with a map



View attachment 172649

WOW!!! Great job Cyten. Wish I was that handy with computers. LOL. And nicely accurate. Thanks for posting.
Many of the Ottoman style kubur (horse) pistols show up with typical French style flintlocks. But it appears that most of these locks were imports from Europe, in various degrees of quality. But it's rare to see an Ottoman style shoulder gun with a traditional style flintlock. I've only seen one or two. They all have miquelet locks. Curious.

Rick