Ottoman Guns

[rickystl]

Also, what appears to be a European stamp on the barrel of an Algerian musket. Can't identify.

RickView attachment 172419

After consulting with a collector friend who has a vast reference base of these marks, cannot locate same. But he speculates that the stamp is from a lesser known French barrel maker.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

"This was my first question as well, I've been in contact with gentleman who makes them and he has told me they are newly manufactured by him! However, he stated they are not functional. I'm wondering what it would take to make them work. "


It would depend on if the the locks were made to functional like the originals. And if the barrels are good quality, correct type of steel with threaded breech plugs. And the only thing needed for shooting is the drilling of a vent hole. Similar to the Indian made guns currently imported from Canada. But I suspect they are something less, with costumes being the main focus. But a cool website none the less.

Here is a trio of Albanian pistols showing the two common stock styles. Two with common Balkan style miquelet locks, and one with a less common French style flintlock. The middle pistol is a shooter with a Hoyt barrel liner.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hi Barud

That one indeed has a beautiful barrel and wood. Here is my assessment:

STOCK: As Cyten mentions, it's missing it's rear butt section. Also, there appears to be a large sliver of wood missing from behind and just forward of the lock area. Also, I can not detect any evidence that the barrel is pin-fastened to the stock. The slight darkening of the wood near the muzzle end tells me there was once barrel bands (maybe just one or two longer ones) at that point. It's possible the only thing holding the barrel to the stock is the breech plug tang. LOL

LOCK: A nice looking Turkish lock. Looks like it may have a date as well as the maker's mark. The lock appears to have been chemically cleaned. While this type of cleaning distracts from a collector's value, it doesn't really matter if the goal is to make a shooter. Also, it appears the grooves in the frizzen face are completely worn down. Assuming the lock is still in general working order, the frizzen might require re-hardening. So the lock has likely seen much more use than at first glance.

BARREL: A beautiful Damascus pattern typical of high quality Turkish barrels. It would be good to know the condition of the bore AND if it is rifled or smooth bore. A smooth bore is much easier to clean/re-furbish to shooting condition than a rifled barrel. Unless, the barrels are getting new steel liners. Then the bore condition is not really important.

IMHO $1,600USD is way to much for this gun that is missing parts and considerable lock wear.

Rick

 

[cyten]

As a point of interest, I found this old scan i had from a book (the title I cannot find) of a Shishane made with the Ferguson loading system

Here is also an original Ottoman arms manual, "Gun Instructions - The Shishane" that was found in a tent in Tel-el-Kebir on Sept 14, 1882,the day after the British Victory over the Egyptians. Irregulars were still armed with Shishane up until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922, so it would make sense for military leaders to have some instruction on these still.

 

[TobJohn]

As a point of interest, I found this old scan i had from a book (the title I cannot find) of a Shishane made with the Ferguson loading system
View attachment 175491


Here is also an original Ottoman arms manual, "Gun Instructions - The Shishane" that was found in a tent in Tel-el-Kebir on Sept 14, 1882,the day after the British Victory over the Egyptians. Irregulars were still armed with Shishane up until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922, so it would make sense for military leaders to have some instruction on these still.

View attachment 175512
View attachment 175513

That breach loader is incredibly cool! I had no idea that technology saw any use outside the British in the America War for Independence.

 

[Rudyard]

As a point of interest, I found this old scan i had from a book (the title I cannot find) of a Shishane made with the Ferguson loading system
View attachment 175491


Here is also an original Ottoman arms manual, "Gun Instructions - The Shishane" that was found in a tent in Tel-el-Kebir on Sept 14, 1882,the day after the British Victory over the Egyptians. Irregulars were still armed with Shishane up until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922, so it would make sense for military leaders to have some instruction on these still.

View attachment 175512
View attachment 175513

Dear Cyten I have handled that rifle & have good photoe's I worked as arms consultant for the Glenbow Museum in Calgary Alberta years ago They needed such a person & I fit the bill .It didn't have any provenance the whole Glenbow Foundation where set up by one Erick Harvey land & Cattle magnate who hated sending taxes to Ottawa. So he build Museums , indoor parks ,statues anything that left his surplus in the province & I gather he bought willy nilly via agents with little idea what he'd bought . They paid me handsome (I would have paid THEM!) and it being by then freezeing I hopped a freight train West through the Rockies , I knew They would get through .and each' unit' is heated .( Thought that might resonate with you a fellow traveler ) I think I have my notes ex G bow.
Small World, good eh.
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

That breach loader is incredibly cool! I had no idea that technology saw any use outside the British in the America War for Independence.

It does seem strange to me that an inventor would make this and only seek out one military contract, but the Ferguson only ever comes up with the Brits! And this one Ottoman example...

Dear Cyten I have handled that rifle & have good photoe's I worked as arms consultant for the Glenbow Museum in Calgary Alberta years ago They needed such a person & I fit the bill .It didn't have any provenance the whole Glenbow Foundation where set up by one Erick Harvey land & Cattle magnate who hated sending taxes to Ottawa. So he build Museums , indoor parks ,statues anything that left his surplus in the province & I gather he bought willy nilly via agents with little idea what he'd bought . They paid me handsome (I would have paid THEM!) and it being by then freezeing I hopped a freight train West through the Rockies , I knew They would get through .and each' unit' is heated .( Thought that might resonate with you a fellow traveler ) I think I have my notes ex G bow.
Small World, good eh.
Regards Rudyard

WOW! What great coincidence! Very sweet gig you had there, I am always trying to weasel my way into something like that. Currently in Cyprus, where I've spent the last 2 weeks trying to sell myself into such role. Please do post photos and the notes when you dig them up!

 

[Barud]

Hi Barud

That one indeed has a beautiful barrel and wood. Here is my assessment:

STOCK: As Cyten mentions, it's missing it's rear butt section. Also, there appears to be a large sliver of wood missing from behind and just forward of the lock area. Also, I can not detect any evidence that the barrel is pin-fastened to the stock. The slight darkening of the wood near the muzzle end tells me there was once barrel bands (maybe just one or two longer ones) at that point. It's possible the only thing holding the barrel to the stock is the breech plug tang. LOL

LOCK: A nice looking Turkish lock. Looks like it may have a date as well as the maker's mark. The lock appears to have been chemically cleaned. While this type of cleaning distracts from a collector's value, it doesn't really matter if the goal is to make a shooter. Also, it appears the grooves in the frizzen face are completely worn down. Assuming the lock is still in general working order, the frizzen might require re-hardening. So the lock has likely seen much more use than at first glance.

BARREL: A beautiful Damascus pattern typical of high quality Turkish barrels. It would be good to know the condition of the bore AND if it is rifled or smooth bore. A smooth bore is much easier to clean/re-furbish to shooting condition than a rifled barrel. Unless, the barrels are getting new steel liners. Then the bore condition is not really important.

IMHO $1,600USD is way to much for this gun that is missing parts and considerable lock wear.

Rick

Your input is much appreciated, Rick. If only I knew where to find cheaper examples...

It does seem strange to me that an inventor would make this and only seek out one military contract, but the Ferguson only ever comes up with the Brits! And this one Ottoman example...

That gun has been an enigma for me since I first saw it (I think Rudyard posted it here in the forum before, in a thread regarding Tipu Sultan). Well, before the Ferguson was the La Chaumette, which was, as far as I know, never militarized and copied by various makers over Europe. It's perfectly possible that a La Chaumette gun or barrel made its way into the Ottoman Empire and got stocked/restocked into the shape we see today. Then again, I have no concrete basis for such a claim. If you all say that it's a Ferguson mechanism for a certainty, then my thesis will go down the drain.

 

[TobJohn]

Your input is much appreciated, Rick. If only I knew where to find cheaper examples...

That gun has been an enigma for me since I first saw it (I think Rudyard posted it here in the forum before, in a thread regarding Tipu Sultan). Well, before the Ferguson was the La Chaumette, which was, as far as I know, never militarized and copied by various makers over Europe. It's perfectly possible that a La Chaumette gun or barrel made its way into the Ottoman Empire and got stocked/restocked into the shape we see today. Then again, I have no concrete basis for such a claim. If you all say that it's a Ferguson mechanism for a certainty, then my thesis will go down the drain.

Flintlock breech-loading gun Sporting gun, possibly by Michael Bidet for George I or George II - Royal Armouries collections

Not a lot of information in the collections, but that would make sense if they were sporting guns and on the market.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

10-pages long now ... and this post continues to fascinate me! Thanks to all for the input!

 

[Rudyard]

It does seem strange to me that an inventor would make this and only seek out one military contract, but the Ferguson only ever comes up with the Brits! And this one Ottoman example...


WOW! What great coincidence! Very sweet gig you had there, I am always trying to weasel my way into something like that. Currently in Cyprus, where I've spent the last 2 weeks trying to sell myself into such role. Please do post photos and the notes when you dig them up!

Dear Cyten .You know the road ,I had hitched up through Montana & went by Babs up to Calgary out skirts well you cant hitch in the city so I takes a bus that took me near the Glenbow museum .Well Ime a museum buff so I go in ask the entry fee & go dump my swag when I get to the entry they gave me a ticket me evidently a swager I guess . Ime up in Cultural History looking at all the great guns displayed when a chatty attendant says" We have some nice pistols" I replied " Yes youve got some great guns but your labelings incorrect '' That pistols not Spanish its Scottish & that flintlock rifle isn't one Its an Air rifle By Kolbe c 1740 I forget now the precise word's but she phones the Curator Ron Getty He comes down" .Theirs a problem?".. I reply No but your lableings out (As is very common in Museums .)" Oh what do you think of this & that & other guns and I was able to tell him.

I had unwittingly fell on my feet they had been offerered 40 odd Canadian associated guns by a dealer & Its their mandate to collect such items He had picked out a lot of guns from storage as if to exchange. Well they havnt a clue what they had they needed an unbiased sort of expert with no local connection .( A man from out of town is allway's deemed an Expert) I was going up to friends at Fort Assiniboine but said Ide call back which I did . So they explained they had funding for ten days while I looked over & appraised the guns as to date, Nationality, type , evidence of forgery , honest alteration approx. value .Ect . He says we pay consutants between 1 to 200 a day I didn't want to appear greedy so we settled on 175 per diem . Well Ime a gun maker & can see THRUOGH a gun in a way so gave them the report they needed All the while crashing at the youth Hostel . They then found two more days funding so armed with a dictaphone I go through the storage . "Wow !" Sweet briers all kinds of goodies , All steel Scots pistols A Collier rifle or might been a pistol . The former keeper was a Ex Army No doubt a wizz with Bren guns but had dremmelled the inventory numbers !! a decided NO NO! . A cased Dickson double Tube lock made for the eccentric Chas Gordon. All kinds of goodies but I didn't have to do the Colts / Winchester's stuff machine disgorged rubbish in my view . They were happy & was too still knowing the conditions I preferred the freight out of Ailiff yards & woke up in a sideing near Fort Camloops the load changed but a rail man says " This is going up to Jasper But go down the line there's a' Hump'' (Shunter running as they never stop lest the diesel freezes then its bad news till thaw ) but by then it was light so I plowed through the snow to the freeway & soon had a lift to Vancouver . I later went back to do a travelling exhibit .. You know the Road it's all just Tinarse luck
. Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Cyten: That shishane with a Frguson action is certainly a curiosity. Judging by the decoration on the gun I'm guessing this one was made as a sporting type rifle for someone of Ottoman/Turk descent who was fascinated with firearms, and had the means to procure it.
That Ottoman arms manual would be a great collectors piece to own. Even if I couldn't read any of it. LOL

Rudyard: I still think you should write a book on your travels and exploits. Would be fastening reading.

Barud: Especially in the last 2-3 years, the pricing for the Ottoman shishane and tufuk shoulder guns have really gone up. More than I would have thought. But that doesn't mean they are all selling. I've seen some advertised for months, even years that go unsold. Even with today's pricing climate they are asking too much for what they are offering. Even experienced dealers in antique arms often have only a rudimentary experience and knowledge with these Eastern market guns. They see all the decoration and automatically assume the gun is worth "X" amount of money. What many of these dealers don't realize is that the market (in the USA anyway) for these guns is so small compared to others, that the prospective buyer for these guns has a much closer idea of it's true resale value.

Flint: LOL Yes, I was thinking of starting new, separate Threads for different styles of Eastern market muzzle loaders. This Thread seems to have taken on a life of it's own. LOL And been much fun. A new viewer may get lost and brain-freeze trying to keep up. LOL

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Flint: LOL Yes, I was thinking of starting new, separate Threads for different styles of Eastern market muzzle loaders. This Thread seems to have taken a life of it's own. LOL And been much fun. A new viewer may get lost and brain-freeze trying to keep up. LOL

Rick

One on Indian arms would be great. Toradar are pretty common on auction/antique sites, but there is little actual information on them.

 

[Rudyard]

Cyten: That shishane with a Frguson action is certainly a curiosity. Judging by the decoration on the gun I'm guessing this one was made as a sporting type rifle for someone of Ottoman/Turk descent who was fascinated with firearms, and had the means to procure it.
That Ottoman arms manual would be a great collectors piece to own. Even if I couldn't read any of it. LOL

Rudyard: I still think you should write a book on your travels and exploits. Would be fastening reading.

Barud: Especially in the last 2-3 years, the pricing for the Ottoman shishane and tufuk shoulder guns have really gone up. More than I would have thought. But that doesn't mean they are all selling. I've seen some advertised for months, even years that go unsold. Even with today's pricing climate they are asking too much for what they are offering. Even experienced dealers in antique arms often have only a rudimentary experience and knowledge with these Eastern market guns. They see all the decoration and automatically assume the gun is worth "X" amount of money. What many of these dealers don't realize is that the market (in the USA anyway) for these guns is so small compared to others, that the prospective buyer for these guns has a much closer idea of it's true resale value.

Flint: LOL Yes, I was thinking of starting new, separate Threads for different styles of Eastern market muzzle loaders. This Thread seems to have taken a life of it's own. LOL And been much fun. A new viewer may get lost and brain-freeze trying to keep up. LOL

Rick

Dear Rick . I do seem to be getting what amounts to fan mail & I have taken steps to collate & make a book of the seemingly entertaining tales . Re the Furguson Shishone I had this in my hands the barrel & action are Durs Eggs But the "funny stock' he had was doubtless deemed ungainly to Ottoman tastes . So the lock & stocking are all Ottoman or whoever had it done & used it .
I think I have still my notes taken at the time and they gave me good photos & I found one note re the ornate Toe lock Moukala given to Marshal Soult by the Heroic Algerian leader Ab Del Kadar , Soult said they got on well & hunted together when he was on Parole in Exile at Soults home in France The gun is dated 1815 Ile try add my handwritten note these where typed up by the Staff Typist Liz Hastie particularly the Dictaphone notes . when I find the Fergusson pics & notes Ile add them.
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

One on Indian arms would be great. Toradar are pretty common on auction/antique sites, but there is little actual information on them.

Good idea Tob. I'll soon start a new Thread: "Guns from the India Continent". Should be interesting - to some. LOL

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Good idea Tob. I'll soon start a new Thread: "Guns from the India Continent". Should be interesting - to some. LOL

Rick

I am looking forward to it!

 

[RAEDWALD]

As a point of interest, I found this old scan i had from a book (the title I cannot find) of a Shishane made with the Ferguson loading system
View attachment 175491


Here is also an original Ottoman arms manual, "Gun Instructions - The Shishane" that was found in a tent in Tel-el-Kebir on Sept 14, 1882,the day after the British Victory over the Egyptians. Irregulars were still armed with Shishane up until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922, so 8it would make sense for military leaders to have some instruction on these still.

View attachment 175512
View attachment 175513

As a point of interest, I found this old scan i had from a book (the title I cannot find) of a Shishane made with the Ferguson loading system
View attachment 175491


Here is also an original Ottoman arms manual, "Gun Instructions - The Shishane" that was found in a tent in Tel-el-Kebir on Sept 14, 1882,the day after the British Victory over the Egyptians. Irregulars were still armed with Shishane up until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922, so it would make sense for military leaders to have some instruction on these still.

View attachment 175512
View attachment 175513

As a point of interest, I found this old scan i had from a book (the title I cannot find) of a Shishane made with the Ferguson loading system



Here is also an original Ottoman arms manual, "Gun Instructions - The Shishane" that was found in a tent in Tel-el-Kebir on Sept 14, 1882,the day after the British Victory over the Egyptians. Irregulars were still armed with Shishane up until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1922, so it would make sense for military leaders to have some instruction on these still.

View attachment 175512
View attachment 175513

It would be wonderful if this book were translated. I do realise that reading the old Ottoman script is not a common skill these days.

edit: apparently the idea is so good that it was worth repeating three times. Ah, the mysteries of these new fangled elastic trickery machines. I have spoken sternly to my impudent engine and trust it will obey in the future. I think it needs better coal. I shall change to best Welsh steaming coal.

 

[Barud]

It would be wonderful if this book were translated. I do realise that reading the old Ottoman script is not a common skill these days.

edit: apparently the idea is so good that it was worth repeating three times. Ah, the mysteries of these new fangled elastic trickery machines. I have spoken sternly to my impudent engine and trust it will obey in the future. I think it needs better coal. I shall change to best Welsh steaming coal.

Printed Ottoman script is one of the easier Ottoman scripts to read, but to my understanding the language is Arabic, rather than Turkish (well, that, or my Ottoman skills have gotten rustier than I thought). I couldn't decipher it.

 

[jns]

Hi guys, can anyone please tell me more about this one /also approx. value?
i am total newbie
many thanks
jns

 

[rickystl]

Hi JNS. Welcome to the Forum.

Your gun is what is commonly known as an Albanian Tanchika musket. And typical of the style. (there are a couple different English spellings used). Probably from Central or Northern Albania sometime during the first half of the 19th Century. The lock is of the common Balkan style used on most of these Tanchikas. The lock is missing it's hammer and mainspring. Likely cannibalized for use on another Tanchika. Probably during the 20th Century for another collector's musket. The reason for the design of the unusual fish-tail butt stock has never really been confirmed and is still open to speculation. Unless there is a date on the gun, it's almost impossible to accurately date these muskets. As with other Ottoman period guns, their builders never left any written type documentation as compared to their European counterparts.

Interesting the gun still appears to have all of it's original barrel bands (often some or all missing). With prime lock parts missing, and some of the pearl decoration, my guess is that it would fetch maybe about $300.00USD (?)

Here is what the gun would look like if complete:

Rick