Original or Fake ?

Discussion in 'Pre-Flintlock' started by rickystl, Nov 17, 2018.

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  1. Nov 17, 2018 #1

    rickystl

    rickystl

    rickystl

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  2. Nov 17, 2018 #2

    ArtyGunner

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    My problem with it would be given the level of patina, is the lack of corrosion stains around the pins and screws.
     
  3. Nov 17, 2018 #3

    dave_person

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    Hi Rick,
    The marks on the barrel are not maker's marks. They are commonwealth proof marks which dates the pistol barrel during 1649-1660 and certainly made after the English Civil War. There is something odd about the breech. It looks like the plug has an octagon section that butts against the end of the barrel. I'v never seen that except when a standing breech was used.

    dave
     
  4. Nov 17, 2018 #4

    Heelerau

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    I suspect a fake, a good one. Lines of the stock are too crisp, the stamp under the buttplate is modern. The pattern of patina on the lock plate does not look quite right , and as said the corrosion stains around the pins, lack thereof as mentioned. I would approach with extreme caution. The side nails look like a modern style of screw slot, to crisp and undamaged considering the purported age of the piece. I would want provenance for the piece.
     
  5. Nov 18, 2018 #5

    curator

    curator

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    FAKE! This gun is a very nicely "aged" Indian-made replica, mot an original. It is an exact copy of the Indian-made Jacobian lock pistol I have down to the last detail. The scrape on the wood behind the lock plate where the "dog" has cut through the wood's finish is a good give away as is the lack of wear on screws.
     
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  6. Nov 18, 2018 #6

    Newtire

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  7. Nov 18, 2018 #7

    dave_person

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    Hi,
    The gun forgery is pretty good given he got the barrel markings correct for a 1650's English pistol although there are no maker's marks. The number stamped on the butt cap is certainly not original and is either a museum stamp or some much more modern designation. The gun could be a mix of old and new parts as well as a complete fabrication. The lock is very suspect because of the screws.

    dave
     
  8. Nov 18, 2018 #8

    rickystl

    rickystl

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    Guys: Thank you for all your responses. Much appreciated. All of your observations match my thoughts also. The pan appears to have no corrosion and the battery (frizzen) looks like it's never been struck with a flint. Wonder if I should let the Auction House know ? Or just wait and see if someone makes a purchase ? Funny and sad at the same time.

    Dave: I've seen this octagon shape on breech plugs. But only on Ottoman made barrels. See pic below. In fact, the barrel for the stock of that Albanian gun you worked on has a breech plug like this. I once owned one of these Indian made replicas. But sold it a few years ago after receiving the doglock built by Mike Brooks from a kit from TRS. I honestly can't recall if if it had the octagon shaped breech plug or the stamps on the barrel. But maybe Curator can confirm this since he still owns one.

    Actually, I wouldn't mind knowing who actually did the antique finish on this pistol. LOL Sure did a nice job.

    Rick
    006 (Medium).JPG English Doglock Pistol 001 (Medium).jpg
     
  9. Nov 18, 2018 #9

    curator

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    Rick,
    My India made Gun has the octagon flange on the breech plug and "Proof marks" on the barrel. I did modify the butt cap by grinding off the raised ring and browned it and the barrel. I will attempt to post pictures----[​IMG][/URL][/IMG] [​IMG][/URL][/IMG]
     
  10. Nov 18, 2018 #10

    curator

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  11. Nov 18, 2018 #11

    robinghewitt

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    Matchlock musq't dated c1640
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Nov 18, 2018 #12

    rickystl

    rickystl

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    Hi Curator. Thanks for your reply. That's additional evidence. See if you can get your pics to show up.

    What collector or museum would deface the gun by adding a permanant, modern stamp on the butt cap ? Probably none. I sent this to a collector friend on the West Coast and he agreed with all of us. He said the screws were the first give-away. He said that a heads-up to the Auction House would likely be ignored. Its all about the money. The exception would be the large auction houses like Christie's or Southby's and say a 6 or 7 digit piece of art. If other experts agree that it is a fake, or otherwise monkeyed with, they would likely pull it from the auction, because that would generate headlines and the PR would be horrible.
    So I guess I'll watch the auction and see what happens. Sure wish I knew who did the distress job. LOL

    Rick
     
  13. Nov 19, 2018 #13

    curator

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    Rick,

    I have no doubt the item is not an original. A "real" museum catalog number is done by a standard procedure that does not damage the artifact in any way. First a small strip is coated with clear nail polish. When that dries, it is covered with white nail polish. When this is dry, the catalog number is printed (by hand) with India Ink. The catalog number usually includes the year that the artifact was added to the collection, the collection number and the specific artifact number. Then another coat of clear nail polish completes the procedure. I will work on my image hosting service, but suffice to say, my pistol is identical to the item being presented as an original.
     
  14. Nov 19, 2018 #14

    Flint62Smoothie

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    I had that same experience with an auction house when they went to sell the alleged Hannah Dustin musket ... when the arm offered was not only ~80 years too late in design, but the original was in the hands of descendants of Ms. Dustin.

    All documented by a local historical society ... and the auction house didn't care ...sold the fake for thousands!
     
  15. Nov 19, 2018 #15

    Pukka Bundook

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    Hi Rick,

    I'd let the auction house know what they have.
    That way, they can't plead ignorance. Quite a few auctions have been told of such things on another forum, and generally pull the item, or re-phrase the description somewhat.
    If warned, it's on their own heads after that.

    Best,
    Richard.
     
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  16. Nov 20, 2018 #16

    rickystl

    rickystl

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    Well, I decided to send the auction a short note. Here is the (expected) response I received back:

    Hello Richard,

    Thank you for your email. Not a good news. This auction combines three large collections. Could be the case, but owners really thought (and continue to think) that all of their items are original....

    Kind Regards,
    Sofe Support Team


    I'll watch this auction when it comes up. Should be interesting. Too bad someone may get hosed.

    Rick
     
  17. Nov 20, 2018 #17

    Flint62Smoothie

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    “Yes sir ... I bid $10,000 for that $1,000 faked item.”

    Paddle? My paddle ... number?

    “Yes ... I deserved to be PADDLED for that bid ... ”
     
  18. Nov 23, 2018 #18

    rickystl

    rickystl

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    Hi Flint. LOL !! Well, that could happen LOL. If the pistol was genuine, in that condition, it would easily fetch the upper estimated price range. So, it will be really interesting to watch this auction and see what happens.
    I seem to recall it was MVTC that first introduced the replica (?) with the other retailers carrying the same item a bit later. So it had to be copied from a (supposed) genuine pistol - from somewhere. Wonder where the authentic pistol is loated ? Maybe MVTC knows ?

    Rick
     
  19. Nov 24, 2018 #19

    curator

    curator

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    My replica pistol DSC00985.JPG DSC00983.JPG
     
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  20. Nov 25, 2018 #20

    rickystl

    rickystl

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    Hi Curator

    Ohhhh......that pistol looks soooo much better than the Factory finish. Especially like that ebony colored stock. Great job. And there's that octagon breech plug.

    Rick
     
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