Original Trade Gun/Fowler barrel profile?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Hey you!

One thing that kind of miffs me is today most (nearly all) trade gun and fowler repros use barrels that are far thicker than the originals.

On English trade guns, the barrels are thin and very lightweight. The Indians wanted lightweight guns and the originals were in the 4.5-5.5lbs range.

Just look at pictures of the muzzles on originals if you don’t believe me. They’re out there.

Instead, today we’ve got thick and heavy barrels that give us guns in the 7-9lbs range on average.

Why is this? You’d think with todays advanced in metallurgy it could be easily done. Even the barrels on modern unmentionable shotguns are often very thin.

Here’s the muzzle of an original early Northwest trade gun (top) compared to my repro with a Colerain barrel on bottom:

It’s a huge difference. My barrel must be 2-3 times heavier than an original.

So is it just liability? Or lack of attention to detail from out barrel makers of today? Or something else?

Thanks!

 

[Kansas Jake]

I can think of two reasons. You already mentioned liability and I suspect another issue problems companies would face with dented, dinged and bent barrels from heavy handed sales people, shippers and consumers.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Contact Bob Hoyt. He has patterns for my English and French trade gun barrels that are taken directly off of originals in my collection.

 

[deerstalkert]

try a Rice Dolep barrel. featherweight.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

That's nice. And I say that because it IS nice and not just saying so your feelings don't get hurt.

 

[Trot]

Contact Bob Hoyt. He has patterns for my English and French trade gun barrels that are taken directly off of originals in my collection.

Yep, correct barrels are out there, I have one of your Carolina guns and a Dutch trade gun from Leonard Day and both have nice lightweight proper barrels.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think one reason may be that they use a single barrel profile to accommodate multiple bore sizes. Matt Denison of the now defunct North Star West made a point of the fact that his barrels were profiled specifically for each bore size.

R.E. Davis used to sell a Type D French fusil kit with a properly profiled barrel. Proper length too.., 46” if I remember correctly.*

Thick barrels don’t annoy me as much as “turtle” front sights.

Notchy Bob

*LATE EDIT: The R.E. Davis kit is still shown on their website, but I don't know if it is still actually available or not. It has a 48" barrel, not 46", so I got that detail wrong, but it is evidently copied directly from an original. I don't know if the barrel is available separately or not. Check it out here: R.E. Davis French "Fine Fusil" Kit

 

[Kevin]

Wonder if you can bore out a 20 gauge Colerain barrel to a 16 and still have enough meat to be safe?

 

[Rudyard]

I think the liability aspect does come into it. UK shotguns need be thin in the barrels & light guns preferred as you carry it all day and it would handle poorly other wise .Plus all must pass proof so the maker is covered , But the US tastes it seems ran to heavy probably more a' stalk & bladder away' thinking as a rule or so it would seem .North Star offered barrels of 1"AF in 12 bore but they stood UK proof fine The typical Farmers knockabout tool is just that , so barrels are made stouter that needed . At the end of the day the customer is always right , even if he's a blithering idiot .
Rudyard

 

[simonbeans]

I used a Colerain 46" 16 ga fowler barrel to make this fowler. I utilized a French military lock, trigger guard with a French fowler butt plate, all steel. The barrel is advertised as 3.7 pounds. The resultant gun weighs 7 pounds 6 ounces. And with the swamped barrel, it

balances and points very nicely.

 

[NorthFork]

Maybe make barrels from something other than 12L14? My Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket has a wall thickness at the muzzle of .1012" Pedersoli makes their barrels from chromoly steel. Usually 4140 or 4150. How thick is the wall thickness on a Colerain or Rice fowler? I have a Colerain barreled Dutch fowler, but it is buried in the backroom in a locked cabinet or I would measure it.

 

[NorthFork]

@Notchy Bob

What's wrong with turtle front sights? Legitimate question.

 

[Polecat_Tom]

Got wondering about my NW Tradegun . This is a North Star from the late 70's 12 gage. the barrel thickness is .046.

 

[NorthFork]

Got wondering about my NW Tradegun . This is a North Star from the late 70's 12 gage. the barrel thickness is .046.

Wow! Thinner than I would of thought!

 

[Notchy Bob]

@Notchy Bob

What's wrong with turtle front sights? Legitimate question.

Thanks for asking! It is a legitimate question.

It’s mostly a matter of personal preference, but I’m not aware of turtle sights being used on any original trade guns or fowling pieces. As far as I know, they aren’t authentic. There may be an old trade gun out there that has a turtle sight, but I haven’t ever seen one. I’ll be the first to admit I haven’t seen them all, though. However, even if we can scare up an original gun that has one, I think they are over-represented these days. Kind of like the snake effigy fire strikers, I guess. We know those did exist, but not very many of them. I just don’t go for a lot of foo-fer-aw with my guns and gear.

With that said, nowadays we (myself included) use lots of kit that isn’t authentic. In fact, I have a Jackie Brown fowling piece that has a turtle front sight, and it works fine. I would have preferred a plain fusil sight, but Jackie likes the turtle, so that’s what I got, and it ain’t worth the effort to replace it.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[NorthFork]

Thanks for asking! It is a legitimate question.

It’s mostly a matter of personal preference, but I’m not aware of turtle sights being used on any original trade guns or fowling pieces. As far as I know, they aren’t authentic. There may be an old trade gun out there that has a turtle sight, but I haven’t ever seen one. I’ll be the first to admit I haven’t seen them all, though. However, even if we can scare up an original gun that has one, I think they are over-represented these days. Kind of like the snake effigy fire strikers, I guess. We know those did exist, but not very many of them. I just don’t go for a lot of foo-fer-aw with my guns and gear.

With that said, nowadays we (myself included) use lots of kit that isn’t authentic. In fact, I have a Jackie Brown fowling piece that has a turtle front sight, and it works fine. I would have preferred a plain fusil sight, but Jackie likes the turtle, so that’s what I got, and it ain’t worth the effort to replace it.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Fair enough. I have several books detailing trade arms. Most have detailed pictures. Without digging them out, now that I really think about it, I think you are right.

 

[montezuma]

My trade gun is 7 lbs and doesn'tfeel heavy. It has a turtle sight also. I was kinda worried that the wrist might get a Crack in it, seems kinda thin but the stock has really held up over the years.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

delete

 

[NorthFork]

My Pedersoli Indian Trade Musket's advertised weight is 7 1/4# but actually weighs a hair under 7#.

 

[deerstalkert]

i

That's nice. And I say that because it IS nice and not just saying so your feelings don't get hurt.

am too old to have feelers Mike!!! just ask my wife.
assuming you were refering to my fowler, i am without words. praise from so experienced a builder leaves me speechless.