OIL and FOULING

[mykeal]

bpb - why keep doing the experiments? Simple. Because we want to know the answers. If you don't like what others are doing with their time and money, don't read the posts.

 

[Thunderchild]

I would like to see the test done with crisco. Great grease for frying Chicken, lubing bullets and making pie crusts. What a country.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

after I clean my guns I use WD as a preservative if they are to be stored awhile. when I plan to use them I clean with denatured alky. then lube with lanolin. works good for patch lube too but I've been using Go-Jo white for some time.

 

[roundball]

Wow...pretty strong reaction there my friend...I think activities like this are just natural off-shoots of the hobby...experimentation may show something or it may not...and kudos to Zonie for being willing to share what he did whether or not anyone chooses to get anything from it.

Or it might have just been a good way to pass an afternoon...there are probably worse ways to spend time. :grin:

 

[50cal.cliff]

Folks due these kind of tests and publish the results to inform and because all of us haven't grown too old to learn something! :shake:
This forum has a growing population of new BP shooters and sometimes it's easier to show results than just too speak of results.
There is probably not a day goes by that I log on to this site that I don't go away with at least one tibit of knowledge that I did't have when I made that log in. Somedays that knowledge comes from a veteran like Zonie and somedays it's from someone else!
Today's lesson,
Veteran - 1
Someone else - 0

 

[Blizzard of '93]

ditto Cliff, I enjoy reading about the experiments shooters do and load data also.

 

[Zonie]

By popular demand, another series of experiments has been completed! :grin:
This time the subject is PYRODEX and based on the assumption that the courser grade of it would produce more fouling I used RS.

As with the last experiment I burned 3, 24 grain piles of powder in succession for a total of 72 grains worth of powder at each location.

I took a suggestion and added Ballistol to the lubricants and, because many of us use Birchwood Casey metal protection in our bores I added Barricade to the lubes to see how it worked with Pyrodex.

The first picture shows the first of three piles of powder on the sheet metal. Today the sky was cloudless so the metal looks blue.

Because uncontained Pyrodex burns slower than black powder, instead of a big Whoosh I got more of a whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh... as each pile lit the next one.

I photographed the test after wiping both sides of the powder fouling.
As with the first test, the right side of each pile was wiped with just water while the left side of the piles was wiped with water with a few drops of dishwashing soap in it.
The paper towel pads were wet but not dripping wet.

I was surprised at the results of the Ballistol (far right). It cleaned up nicely with both plain water and soapy water.
Stumpys Moose Milk (3rd from right) seemed to clean up with plain water but the soapy water didn't do as well.
Pure Castor oil seemed to be the worst of the group followed by Barricade and motor oil which was slightly better.

Although the losers in this test look rather grim, I must add that after I took the last picture I wiped each test site with a very wet paper towel with the soap solution and with 4 wipes at each location the only places where residue remained was the motor oil and the pure caster oil.
This 4 wipe test was just to find out how well a half assed "cleaning" would preform and listed from the "winner" to the "Loser" here are the results:
Ballistol, Vegetable oil, Barricade, none, Stumpy's, Bore Butter, Mobil 1, pure caster, motor oil.
The last three still had a considerable amount of fouling left on the metal and suggests that if you use any of these as a patch lube you have your work cut out for you when you start cleaning your gun.

Now, where do I pick up the Federal Funding Grant to pay for all of this high tech work? :rotf:
zonie

EDITED TO REPLACE PHOTOBUCKETS NON WORKING PICTURES WITH THE REAL ONES.

 

[oldwolf]

This is really a great test and your presentation was thought out and the results are right there for us all to see.

I use natural lubes on my wads and patches but use CLP to preserve the barrels during storage.

Because of this test, I will wipe my barrels of all CLP (all that I can that is) prior to shooting them.

At this point, I still plan to use CLP during storage.

This thread should be a sticky! :thumbsup:

 

[Rebel]

Thanks for testing the Pyrodex. Some interesting results.

 

[paulvallandigham]

To be fair, you should also consider cleaning the oil compounds with a alcohol, since that represents the better solvent to cut grease and oil. Petroleum distillate also is a common solvent, and may work better with the oils. I am not " Volunteering " you to do more testing. I thank you for all the efforts you have already made to put this information together for us.

I just would never consider using Mobile One synthetic oil in my gun and then try to clean it up with just soap and water. I would use Hoppe's #9, or alcohol to break it down, and then finish with soap and water.

 

[Zonie]

You are right paul. There are undoubtedly solvents that will clean up the fouling better than water but, as I mentioned in the first post the idea was to validate whether regular or synthetic petroleum oils are good things to use with black powder (or synthetic like Pyrodex).

It would seem to me the answer is that either petroleum oil or the synthetic oils (and related oils like automatic transmission fluids) aren't good things to use for patch lubes.

To me, the tests also said that if a person uses one of these petroleum based oils to protect their bores they would be well advised to wipe their bores with alcohol or some other degreaser before shooting their guns.
zonie

 

[paulvallandigham]

Jim; We agree. I have never advocated using those petroleum products as a patch lube. They do a pretty good job of preventing rust, however. They just need to be cleaned out of the gun before going shooting with it. I make a practice of cleaning my guns before going to the range, or to hunt, simply because I don't get to do it every other day. I suppose if I was shooting that often, I would not bother using any synthetic products to protect the bores, and would simply use bore butter, of Stumpy's Moose snot. Olive oil with beeswax, mixed 50/50 seems to be promising, too. I still am using my Moose milk, made from water soluable oil, liquid detergent water and Hydrogen Peroxide added just before using it, to clean the barrel. I even use the mix, sans the HO3 as a patch lube on occasion, but only at the range, where the shot will be taken within a couple of minutes max.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Interesting. I'm with Paul on using alcohol to remove the oil from the bore before I load and shoot. After cleaning my rifles I run a patch of Knight oil (hope that isn't a sin to say here)this oil is a very light weight oil and protects the rifle well. The use of a patch with alcohol seems to remove the oil very well.

 

[John Camp]

Thanks for your help Zonie! I appreciate all input and am inclined to base my decisions on a thoughtful weighing of all available info. :thumbsup:

 

[Jerry Coffee]

I read a question a shooter sent to the company that makes Lee ALOX lube about using their product with black powder. Their represenative said to only use ALOX lube with smokeless powder because it is a petroleum based product and will react with one of the components of black powder when fired and create a tar like residue.
If you have ever tried to remove Lee Liquid ALOX from something, you will find it very difficult. I finally had to use lacquer thinner and scrub it vigorously to remove it form some minie balls.

After I read the comment from the Lee represenative, I immediately tossed away five small plastic bottles of Lee Liquid ALOX that I was just about to use on my minie balls as a bore lubricant.

 

[BigDave]

Castor oil is a very interesting oil.

It's very slippery.
It's very resistant to bursting into flame because it's stressed process is to chain into more complex molecules instead of breaking down to simpler more flamible molecules.

Good part, it's perfect for a wad mix because it boosts the flame resistance as well as helping seal.

Bad part, if pushed to the end result is it chains into varnish(which can protect or build up).

So, it's a good fraction of a wad, or even a patch lube as long as you use a cleaner at the end of the day that cuts any residual surface varnish.
(I kind of like the idea of a little bit soaking into the pores of the metal and sealing it better)

 

[BenKolb]

congratulations Zonie :bow: first ever forum thread to be added to my favorites. Know a couple of hardheads I need to show this to.

 

[bpbrs]

why would anyone use petrol oil as a patch lube when shooting?
Metal preservative OK, clean the bore before shooting and use your favorite patch or bullet lube.

bpb

 

[Zonie]

"why would anyone use petrol oil as a patch lube when shooting?..."
-----------------
To some folks, oil is oil and patch lube usually has some kind of oil in it.

During the 18th and up to the mid 19th Century most folks used an animal fat or olive oil for their patch lubes, petroleum being an oddity more often used for medical treatments than lubricating anything.

With the advent of the cartridge guns, much of the knowledge dealing with the needs of a muzzleloader was lost simply because, "nobody shoots them old things anymore!"

About 35 years ago, there were several different "patch lubes" on the market which contained petroleum oils (oil is oil) and the folks who used them blamed everything from the type or maker of the black powder to the phase of the moon for the nasty hard fouling that rapidly built up in their bores.
Over time, the petroleum oils began to be suspected as being the main cause of the hard fouling being seen so, a general rule became "Don't use Petroleum oils in your muzzleloaders."

I ran the above tests simply to see if this general rule had a reason for being or was it just another of the Old Wives Tales which still haunt us.

There are also a number of folks who use a petroleum oil to protect the bores of their muzzleloaders and I suspect that many of them load their first shot without even thinking of the problems the oil in the bore can cause.
Hopefully, my tests not only confirmed that motor oil (regular or synthetic) will produce extra fouling but by reading about it these folks will realize that they should take the time to wipe their bores clean before they load the first shot.

 

[oldwolf]

If I am looking at your pictures correctly, Bore Butter didn't do THAT well. It looks like vegetable oil works better with Pyrodex.

I am assuming that vegetable oil will behave pretty close to Criso, so I think I may shift from T/C Bore Butter to Criso.

This has to do with one of my .54's, that now does not want to pattern well. I am now making my own patches, lubed with Bore Butter, but found out this weekend I need to wipe the bore at least every 3rd shot, for if I don't, the patch burns and the ball is way off target. I used to be able to shoot a string of 20 or more PRB with no problems and no wiping!

I also store the gun with the bore lubed with CLP, but may get away from that and preserve it with Olive Oil.

It seems a lot of my troubles began 50 to a 100 shots after I switched to CLP for storage. Could there be a connection?

PS - Why isn't this thread a sticky yet?