Non Wipers Only.

[BlackHillsBob]

never figured out what was wrong with a quick wipe between shots. im into exteme accuracy at any range and wipeing between shot is one part of my way of doing it. i agree with dutch on this. i mentioned deep grooves and some one said explain. whats to explain? deep grooves is known to be more tolerant of residue. when i was to the museum in wyoming all the old percussion rifles had deep grooves except the hawkens. one of the reasons hawken shot so well was their softer metal in their barrels. also most of their barrels was tappered . a softer metal barrel and a tappered barrel has less muzzle barrel whip. no barrel whip is better for accuracy. if you want to shoot all day with out all the fluff, have a barrel made with 15 thousands deep grooves and use LINEN FOR PATCH MATERIAL.stop making things so complicated. working up to a load means you dont know diddly from reality. sorry guys. go after me with all your might. too old to listen and i always shoot good groups with out all the BS. dutch is older than i am and i bet he agrees.

 

[S.Kenton]

Never heard of “barrel whip” or rather “Random Barrel Oscillation”, in black powder firearms. If it’s there, it’s so minimal that it has little or no effect on accuracy. I think there’s a lot more relative stuff that will affect accuracy.Lets see what Dutch says about the subject as he is, in my mind, the leading authority on accuracy as far as I’m concerned. BHB you should buy a copy of his book...a lifetime full of knowledge and worth every penny!

 

[Kansas Kid]

Bob, I take it your a wiper and shoot off of a rest?

 

[arcticap]

Never heard of “barrel whip” or rather “Random Barrel Oscillation”, in black powder firearms. If it’s there, it’s so minimal that it has little or no effect on accuracy. I think there’s a lot more relative stuff that will affect accuracy.Lets see what Dutch says about the subject as he is, in my mind, the leading authority on accuracy as far as I’m concerned. BHB you should buy a copy of his book...a lifetime full of knowledge and worth every penny!

Rice Barrels even mentions this in one of their product pages under "STRESS RELIEVING" --->>> http://ricebarrels.com

" STRESS RELIEVING:
Each barrel blank is heat treated in an electric furnace. This procedure eliminates stress and warpage, helping to control harmonic vibrations and/or barrel whip."

And the above makes no mention about how the stock, stock warpage, stock bedding or temperature fluctuations can affect barrel vibration and accuracy.
Why are chunk guns and their barrels made to be so heavy and large in diameter, and how can they also display such a high degree of accuracy?
Cryogenic treatment is also considered to be another method to stress relieve muzzle loader barrels and to help increase their accuracy.

 

[S.Kenton]

Rice Barrels even mentions this in one of their product pages under "STRESS RELIEVING" --->>> http://ricebarrels.com

" STRESS RELIEVING:
Each barrel blank is heat treated in an electric furnace. This procedure eliminates stress and warpage, helping to control harmonic vibrations and/or barrel whip."

And the above makes no mention about how the stock, stock warpage, stock bedding or temperature fluctuations can affect barrel vibration and accuracy.
Why are chunk guns and their barrels made to be so heavy and large in diameter, and how can they also display such a high degree of accuracy?
Cryogenic treatment is also considered to be another method to stress relieve muzzle loader barrels and to help increase their accuracy.

Wow, I guess I’ve been so involved in the traditional aspect in my muzzle loading journey, that I never gave all that stuff a thought. I’ve known about that for my black firearms... but have never been overly concerned with my lighter loaded black powder firearms. I’m more concerned with being consistent in the load devolopment, wiping and hold methods.

 

[S.Kenton]

I would also say that barrel harmonics is a moot point in black powder firearms. Unless your shooting out past 400-500 yards... I would also venture to guess that Rice uses that as a marketing tool... not saying it’s not real, just saying it’s more relevant in sniper rifles than the old school black powder rifles.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

i can not believe some one would post that barrel whip has no effect in black powder shooting. its a free country and anybody can jump in even with out any knowledge of what they are talking about. its impossible to pass on info when the naysayer indexfinger on the key board can stop moving even though it has nothing to say but i cant believe it. however the head of the blackbowder group we have locally summed it up. what some guys call groups wouldnt drop anything out here. cant pass on info when the cant believe guys ruin it for the ones who want to learn. you rule and no info is passed on.

 

[boombyspark]

BRAVO!
YUOUR POST makes great good sense.I know it's possible to shoot consistently without wiping between shots, but it's only a rare combination of things that will allow it.

What puzzles me it why the wipe would be required for chuck gun shooting and not the other.

You apparently think things through and I would like to send you my eBook at no charge to a fellow thoughtful rifleman.

Send me na email at

[email protected]

and I'll get a copy on its way immediately.

Dutch Schoultz

The first rifle that I built back in 1990 has always been interesting and has always left me wondering why. If I were to clean between shots or 5 shots or any amount of shots before my shooting is done, the gun hagnfires until I wash the bore with water. If I don't wipe at all, the gun will shoot flawlessly all day. It has a Green Mountain barrel in 50 cal. and I use a 490 round ball and an 18 thou patch, wet with moose milk. Would my touch hole liner be too close to the breech? It would be interesting to hear thoughts as to why. I'm just curious.

 

[S.Kenton]

i can not believe some one would post that barrel whip has no effect in black powder shooting. its a free country and anybody can jump in even with out any knowledge of what they are talking about. its impossible to pass on info when the naysayer indexfinger on the key board can stop moving even though it has nothing to say but i cant believe it. however the head of the blackbowder group we have locally summed it up. what some guys call groups wouldnt drop anything out here. cant pass on info when the cant believe guys ruin it for the ones who want to learn. you rule and no info is passed on.

I’m having a hard time reading what your saying due to terrible paragraph forming. But yes, I stand by what I say... barrel whip has no little to no effect on a 100 yard muzzle loading group. The barrel is heavy enough that my 70 grains of powder, 440 round ball and tightly woven pillow ticking load, will not budge it.

 

[S.Kenton]

I’m done with this silly conversation..

 

[Rattus58]

So I recently converted to not wiping between shots after umpteen years shooting muzzle loaders. Got sick and tired of the plugged breech area so I tried it after being stubborn for all these years.

Started with my little 36cal poor boy, percussion lock, drum, 36” GM BBL. used 3f Elephant .018 ticking .350 RB and new to me Hoppes #9 plus as recommended by a couple of seasoned shooters on here and who I recognize on other forums. Accuracy was not lacking either.

So for the non wipers what combinations are working for your flint and percussion guns?
Mainly lubes and techniques.

This is not a thread about I do or I don’t wipe, or should I or shouldn’t.

Three things I so with ALL of my muzzleloaders... one, I size my bullets to at the very most, .001 over bore, often .001 underbore size... in other words, my .451 I size to .450 for general shooting, .452 for hunting.

Patch lube... now that is funny... because though I prefer to use the approach that I learned from Dutch Schultz of finding the best ratio of "slick" with cutting oil or ballistol to water (typically 8:1 for me... one gun a little richer) but I've used just about everything as a patch lube, vegetable oil, crisco, ballistol straight... lots of stuff... and I use the 3f exclusively in all my guns. I'm just learning flints, but keeping my flash hole open and clear is working and I use the least amount of powder I can get away with for accuracy. Now this doesn't at all mean that I don't wipe... I do.. but I do it out of habit actually and usually after 4 or 5 shots. My Whites, can shoot all day long without wiping... and there, heavy bullets I think assist in making sure that everything combusts in the barrel. I think tight patches assist in the same way.

 

[S.Kenton]

Three things I so with ALL of my muzzleloaders... one, I size my bullets to at the very most, .001 over bore, often .001 underbore size... in other words, my .451 I size to .450 for general shooting, .452 for hunting.

Patch lube... now that is funny... because though I prefer to use the approach that I learned from Dutch Schultz of finding the best ratio of "slick" with cutting oil or ballistol to water (typically 8:1 for me... one gun a little richer) but I've used just about everything as a patch lube, vegetable oil, crisco, ballistol straight... lots of stuff... and I use the 3f exclusively in all my guns. I'm just learning flints, but keeping my flash hole open and clear is working and I use the least amount of powder I can get away with for accuracy. Now this doesn't at all mean that I don't wipe... I do.. but I do it out of habit actually and usually after 4 or 5 shots. My Whites, can shoot all day long without wiping... and there, heavy bullets I think assist in making sure that everything combusts in the barrel. I think tight patches assist in the same way.

I believe that as long as your being consistent and getting consistently good results, then carry on! There are so many different variables and different ways of doing things in this sport that it’s not a “ one size fits all”. I’ve wiped between every shot, I’ve skipped some wipings, then went to not wiping at all, after a few years, I went back to wiping between shots and am happy with that.

 

[arcticap]

A lot of research has been done regarding barrel harmonics, vibration and barrel whip.
Somewhat less when it comes to muzzle loaders but there's still some very credible opinions & facts relating to it.
One factor may be due to the softer steel of muzzle loader barrels.
Another factor has to due with powder charges, and how any particular powder charge can affect the barrel vibrations and accuracy of the shot which in turn
can lead to finding a sweet spot.
It's very possible that finding a barrel's sweet spot is actually related to its harmonics and vibrations.
And how much a barrel vibrates can be related to a lot of different factors including how well it has been stress relieved.
Shotgun & smooth bore barrels can also be affected because they're thinner walled and heat up faster.
Just because it's a gray subject doesn't mean that some folks today aren't interested in it.

One ML gun club member once told me that in the old days, people would bury a barrel underground for the entire winter in the belief that it would improve its accuracy.
It was only hearsay but who knows if that's true or not , had any effect on the barrels of the day or why they would even do that if at all.
So perhaps some people during the time of Lewis & Clark were concerned about barrel harmonics & stress relief without even realizing it.

Who's to say that long range muzzle loading competitors haven't treated their barrels using the cryogenic stress relieving process which involves making molecular changes to the barrel steel to relieve steel stress.
Their ML guns may look original, but that doesn't mean that they don't use every available method to maximize the performance of their guns.
Some ML barrel manufacturers may also use such methods but don't necessarily advertise it since that would be considered to be proprietary information.
Most people may only say, "That company makes a good barrel" or "His gun shoots really good".

 

[BlackHillsBob]

now arcticap that was a reply really worth reading. you covered all bases in a very very good way. many in the old days did things they didnt realize that were of science but they were. tying it to a windmill and letting it get vibrated was one of them.( sonic stress relieving,) worked, they didnt know why, but it worked. also the tapered soft hawken barrels had very little vibration in them, worked for them also. the oregon rifle barrel co.has made a few barrels for me. their muzzleloader barrels are of steel with a little lead in the steel. wont blow out if loaded wrong, just bulge. also less vibration at the muzzle. they all have shot very well for me. thanks again for your reply.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Question...
If harmonics play such a strong roll, how do we explain a pinned full stock? My understanding, at least from my unmentionable accuracy days, was fully floating, or sometimes a single pressure point, was most desirable.
Walk

 

[S.Kenton]

Your answer walking eagle; they don’t...

 

[S.Kenton]

Hey Bob, if you would be so kind as to direct your attention to the gun builders bench ... I just dug up
An old thread on my first build. I’ve built several after this one... but I’m really happy with my first. No, I didn’t have barrel harmonics in mind while building it, but it shoots amazing anyhow.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

good for you. what distances are you talking about. close or way way out their. remember lewis and clark took antelope at 300 yeads. have you? wont argue with any one who is satisfied with volks wagon size groups at 300 yards. always remember that the first shot fired in the battle of new orleans was 216 yards off hand though the head of a limey officer with a big bad mouth. can you do that?

 

[arcticap]

now arcticap that was a reply really worth reading. you covered all bases in a very very good way. many in the old days did things they didnt realize that were of science but they were. tying it to a windmill and letting it get vibrated was one of them.( sonic stress relieving,) worked, they didnt know why, but it worked. also the tapered soft hawken barrels had very little vibration in them, worked for them also. the oregon rifle barrel co.has made a few barrels for me. their muzzleloader barrels are of steel with a little lead in the steel. wont blow out if loaded wrong, just bulge. also less vibration at the muzzle. they all have shot very well for me. thanks again for your reply.

Thank you for the interesting concepts, that will give me some more reading to do.

 

[SDSmlf]

the first shot fired in the battle of new orleans was 216 yards off hand though the head of a limey officer with a big bad mouth

BHB, curious which ‘Limey’ officer with a big bad mouth you are referring to? You can’t be referring to Colonel Robert Rennie who shouted, “Hurrah, boys, the day is ours!” before he was shot dead by a salvo of rifle fire from ‘Line Jackson’. Nor could it be Lieutenant General Pakenham, who was killed by a grapeshot. These are the two ‘Limey’ officers often quoted (aka, big mouths) that I remember reading died in the Battle of New Orleans. Both died well after the battle was underway. Who was the ‘Limey’ officer shot in the head from 216 yards away at the start? I am by no means a history expert, but aways looking to learn. Thanks.