No5s v No7s

[Britsmoothy]

Well guys I recon soon that Paul will owe me some dollars! :wink: I have been listening to PaulV recomending no5s for pheasants and so I bought some. However, I seem to of had less success and more cripples than with no7s. I will test it again but next time I will carry some no7 as well to test the two over the day.
Now don,t get me wrong Paul as I am not having ago at you as I respect you to much.
I have alot of faith in pattern density and it,s abillity to connect with birds heads, neck and wings. I think it all to easy to fall into the trap that bigger is better :hmm:
This is only my opinion and next week end I will test further and know more.
What has been your findings with dense patterns of finer shot?

 

[Bountyhunter]

I grew up shooting pheasants. My experience is that fine shot just wad up/ball up in the small feathers and cripple the bird. He might fall from the flight, but he'll hit the ground and run then die later. The larger shot carries the mail and will produce fatal results. You might get by with #6, but 45 years of pheasant hunting in the Great Plains has told me that 7-1/2 is on the light side. It is OK for quail, but too light for pheasant.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If your patterns are wrong, it has to do with your choice of loading components, and not the size of shot. Yes, you will fire more pellets with the smaller shot, but the pellet energy drops off quite fast with the smaller shot. Have I killed pheasants shooting #7 1/2 shot ? Yes. But they all were head and neck hits. If I hit a little back, and put several pellets in their bodies, they were wounded, but not killed and either needed another shot, or had to be chased down. I tried #6, and it is okay. But It does not compare to the power of the #5 shot.

Now, I am shooting a cylinder bore, 12 gauge DB shotgun when I hunt pheasant. I am shooting 2 3/4 drams of FFg powder( 75 grains) behind a OP wad( 1/8" thick) a lubed cushion wad,( celotex, available from Track, Circle Fly, and other suppliers) 1 1/4 oz of #5 magnum shot( high antimony content) and an OS card.Velocity stays under 1100 fps, ( approx. 1130 fps to be exact) so my shot is not buffed by air currents in the transonic zone. Others here shoot more power, and want to have their shot leaving the barrel faster, above the speed of sound. That works in modern shotguns with the plastic cups, and chokes. It does not seem to work with ML shotguns that have NO choke.

Until you tell us what loading methods you are using, and what all the components are, we can't even guess to help you. I have killed pheasants stone dead at 32 yards with that load combination, BTW. That is a long shot when you are shooting over pointers. ( I was the back up shooter). In my modern 12 gauge with its Full choke, I have used the same load to kill birds out to 50 yards.

I have not been out this year to try Jim Rackham's OS card only load on paper, to see what improvement I have in patterns. I fully expect to see this, because the one shot I was able to try this system on with my 20 g. fowler produced a very pretty pattern. Anybody can cripple a bird if their stock doesn't fit them, or they rush a shot, or they cant their shoulders because their stance is wrong, etc. There are dozens of reasons for poor shooting. Usually, we work on these issues on the patterning boards, and then on the Skeet, Trap, and Sporting Clays fields before going into the field.

Best wishes.

Paul

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've always used #6 for pheasant just because that is what my dad always used.
I once got into some terrific shooting during Colorado's early season on teal. They are very small ducks but still have tough plumage. I was shooting a 20 ga. double and was loaded with one ounce of #9's for dove when the first batch of teal took me by surprise. I dropped two stone dead, but then remembered I was shooting 9's and switched to magnum 6's, of which I only had half a dozen in my pocket. I knocked down six teal with the 6's but four of them were still alive on the water. I knocked down four more with the 9's and all hit the water dead. I used the last of my #9 shot loads to finish off birds on the water that were crippled with the magnum 6's. So in that instance, the only time I've shot enough birds to make a comparison, #9 shot clearly out performed #6 shot even with a 25% heavier load of 6's.

 

[paulvallandigham]

JOe: Did you ever pattern those #9 and Magnum #6 shot cartridges? How close were those birds you killed with the #9 shot? What range were you shooting the ducks you crippled with the #6 magnum shot cartridges? Do you have any idea where the two different loads actually hit, compared to where your POA is? Its not unusual to find that heavy cartriges put patterns lower on the target. In shotgun shells, the word " Magnum " refers to the cartridge having more shot. The actual velocity is lower than shooting standard loads. The recoil is more because of the greater shot charge being pushed out the muzzle. Some guns will pattern magnum loads okay, and some not.

I have a Remington 870 Full Choke shotgun that pattners #8, and #5 shot great. It does not pattern #6 very well, nor #4. #7 1/2 shot does not pattern very well, but better than the 4s and 6s.

Even using different loads changes the patterns in that gun. Sometimes simply changing the brand of ammo causes a marked change in patterns, even though its the same powder charge, the same component, and the same weight of shot.

So, please go to your patterning boards anytime you are using new ammo, or different reloading components, down to different brands of primers! Everything can make a difference in some guns, and some things make a difference in all gun barrels.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Dear Paul, as CJ,s experiance shows is it not the denser pattern that totally incapacitated those teal and pellet power second? Reguardless of the mag six,s superior strength. If CJ had not patterned those mag six,s can I assume he did not pattern the no,9 too?
On the birds I shot recently with 5,s on cleaning the birds I noticed that the birds that were killed good were not full of lead, in fact I noticed they had more damage to their heads and necks so I got to wondering why do I need 5,s. For me I have to side step perfect shot placement as alot of my hunting is in thick stuff and so fast taken shots are the norm of which are often less than perfect.
Every bodys experiances make for good reading and it does help one to keep broader opinions.
I,ll keep testing though :v

 

[Roy]

I feel within close yardage 7 1/2's will kill the snot out of most anything that has feathers. If all your shots are within 20 yds then you should be fine.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree with ROY: If all your shots are inside 20 yards, then use the finer pellets. Look at the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual. The tables show pellet energy at muzzle, 20, 40, and 60 yards. Inside 20 yards, you are getting the full benefit of most of that velocity, and the pattern density is usually very high. But the same occurs shooting the larger shot sizes too. I was shooting back up to a father/son team at a Hunting Preserve, when they both missed a pheasant that came up in front of them. The bird first headed in my westerly direction but out way in front of my gun barrel. But, as I mounted my gun to my shoulder, the bird climbed, and then turned another right and came over me at about 65 feet in a incoming/ passing shot. When I fired the bird was much closer than I had planned, and I had a dense pattern of #5 shot hit the bird right in the breast. It dropped about 10 feet from me, cold dead. When we skinned it out, the bird looked like swiss cheese. I took it home, after much kidding, and made Stir-Fry Pheasant with it, cutting those breasts up into smaller pieces to cook fast. It was delicious. The next time I was at the club, the owner reminded me about that bird, and asked how I enjoyed it. When I told her that I had made Stir fry pheasant out of it, she was jealous! I was a little angry at myself for not getting more out front of that incoming bird so that just the side of my pattern would hit it in the head and neck. I have made those kind of shots before, but this time I was just a bit too far back.

I will tell you that the tables show that you are not going to kill birds the size of pheasants at over 30 yards with those #9 or even #7 1/2 pellets cleanly, because they just don't carry that much pellet energy, AND the patterns are just not that dense. Now, if you use the high speed, light International Trap loads, with plated #7 shot, you can get dense patterns at the longer ranges, and you can kill birds at that yardage. The barrel of your shotgun needs to have the throat relieved, ( not necessary in a ML shotgun barrel) and you need a " Long Choke " found on specialty made trap gun barrels, meaning that instead of the choke being formed in an inch of the barrel at the muzzle, the choke is tapered over as much as 3-5 inches behind the muzzle. those 24 gram loads get out to that target very fast, before the shot pattern has a chance to open up.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Yes Paul, in those days I took my shotgunning very seriously and certainly pattern tested any load I hunted with. But that was thirty plus years ago so don't expect me to quote percentages. And yes, I do recall that the 3" magnum loads did not pattern as well from that 20 gauge as did my one ounce handloads, but if they had patterned terribly I'd not have used them.
As to the distance, I can only say it was the same for both the 6's and the 9's. :grin:

 

[Roy]

All depends on head/neck shots and body shots too... I dropped a couple birds last year with only a couple pellets hitting the body with #5's... One was flying hard away sort of angling, thought I missed, piled up into the oncoming hill about 60 yds away.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I hate to say it but playing the "politician" by riding the fence is the way to go with shot. If it's too small, you get dense pattern but no down range energy. If it's too large you loose density and gain down range energy.
Playing in the middle gets the best results. Since no two shotgun barrels shoot the same, one cant say in dogmatic fashion that 5's are better than 6's, etc. One can say they both will beat the snot out of 9's or 00 buck for pheasant. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Capt. Jas. You ae correct, of course. A friend of mine who has owned dozens of shotguns told me before we even patterned my 870 barrel that it would likely prefer #8s, and #5 shot. If it was indifferent with those, and shot #7 1/2 better, it would probably also shoot #6 shot better, too. And #4 shot. He had patterned many of his own guns, as well as dozens of guns belonging to other shooters, over the years and he could be fairly confident on how my Remington would perform. He was fairly conversant about the performance of other brands of shotguns, too.

The last time he and I discussed patterns, he just had received a case of Olympic International 12 ga. trap shells loaded with 3 1/4 dram equ. powder and 25 grams of #7 shot. The shot is hard, and chrome plated. He had pattern papers showing several 30 inch patterns shot at 40 yards that had 94 or better percent of the shot inside that 30 inch circle. His best was 98%. He helped me pattern my DB shotgun, shaking his head at the noise and smoke from Black Powder, but otherwise getting a kick out of seeing the gun perform. I have tried to get him to Friendship, but he went about 50 years ago, and I just can't get him to ride over with us on a day trip. I am still working on him. If I could get him to shoot some of those courses over there, I am sure he would turn heads. He's that good.

It does come down to the individual shotgun to determine which shot patterns best, AND also the kind of hunting you do with the gun. For years I drove ditches and hedge rows for pheasants, with other hunters, but we rarely had dogs. The result was that shots tended to be long. When I hunt the hunting preserves, over the owner's dogs, the shots are much closer, and suited to using my ML shotgun without choke.

 

[Britsmoothy]

These are very good positive replies :v My humble experiance has always shown no,4 being very effective from a 12 for sporting purposes but I have not tried them in my M/l. Have any of you guys?
I seem to recall reading something about in the ole days men would place a wad in the muzzle and add one layer of shot to see which size filled the bore the most without piling up, or something like that. Do any of you know of it?

 

[paulvallandigham]

I could see doing that if you didn't have quality control( Ie. a screen or grid to sort shot by size) in sizing of shot. It would not be necessary today, as shot, at least in the premium grades, are sized quite uniformly. I have used older bags of cheap shot that had a rather wide range of diameters, but that is why it was sold so cheaply, too! I found that patterns were so inconsistent that the shot was not worth the savings in its cost. Now, if I already had screens to do my own sorting, that might have made a big difference. At the time this occurred, I was just out of school, newly married, and trying to pay off loans for school expenses, in addition to starting a life. I bought the cheap shot thinking it would be okay for target shooting, but learned my lesson.

 

I've always used #6 for pheasant just because that is what my dad always used.
I once got into some terrific shooting during Colorado's early season on teal. They are very small ducks but still have tough plumage. I was shooting a 20 ga. double and was loaded with one ounce of #9's for dove when the first batch of teal took me by surprise. I dropped two stone dead, but then remembered I was shooting 9's and switched to magnum 6's, of which I only had half a dozen in my pocket. I knocked down six teal with the 6's but four of them were still alive on the water. I knocked down four more with the 9's and all hit the water dead. I used the last of my #9 shot loads to finish off birds on the water that were crippled with the magnum 6's. So in that instance, the only time I've shot enough birds to make a comparison, #9 shot clearly out performed #6 shot even with a 25% heavier load of 6's.

I too have always used #6 for pheasant; but my Dad got "free" Win AA trap #8 loads every month from the FBI to practice with--instead he hunted with them and regularly downed all sorts of game including pheasant, ruffed grouse, rabbit and squirrel with the little shot. I use #8 only for dove and quail [and sporting clays]. I never saw him fail to down a pheasant with #8s and he typically used a 20 gauge! I have used #5 for pheasant a few times, but went back to #6. Perhaps late in the season when they run and fly "out-of-range" #5s would be better...? When I was young the pheasants seemed more numerous and "held" better--used to get alot of 20 yd shots --the first one I ever killed, in a PA cornfield--was probably at 10 yds. Messed him up bad...learned to let them get out a little...

 

[roundball]

I've been enjoying smoothbore muzzleloaders some the past couple years...used magnum #6s for my turkeys this past spring.

Recently I stumbled across a 25 pound bag of Winchester Lubaloy (copper plated) #4s (only $7) as part of several different bags I bought from a guy cleaning out his garage...figured I'd use it for something...and found out a few weeks ago that it makes a terrific squirrel load in the .62cal Flint smoothbore.

The copper plating does give some shot protection from deformation and makes a tighter pattern as advertised, particularly important when using shot without any kind of protective shot cup.

I have since bought a 10 pound bag of copper plated #6s (for $35 !!) to see if they'll extend the maximum range of my turkey pattern a few more yards...will test after the first of the year.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I can apprieciate that RB, in the past with contempary shot guns 4,s seem to only need a couple of strikes to pretty much sort anything out. :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

"...4,s seem to only need a couple of strikes to pretty much sort anything out..."

You got that right...this squirrel saw me and hopped up on a stump 25yds away, sat there staring at me...when the smoke cleared, he was gone...found him laying stone dead on the other side of the stump...had 6-7 #4's through him

 

[Britsmoothy]

I said I would try the 7s again and allthough this morning I only had two shots I was very pleased with the outcome . The second shot was a squirl up in a tree so really not a fair test but the going away woodcock at 25-30yds was very good. One broken wing,a hole in the head and I think one or two in the body. I will go out again in 1/2 an hour and try some more :hatsoff:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well this afternoon was better still. Another woodcock, a pidgeon and a pheasant. All shot with 7s! I think for me the nod goes to 7s. I,ll go with multiple strikes over a gain in foot pounds any day :thumbsup: