New show Iron and Fire

[LRB]

I don't consider myself quite an arm chair quarter back. I too am, or have been, a gun builder, gunsmith, and a knife maker. Maybe not the best at any one of those, but I get by. I let my work speak for me. I can only judge Casey's by what I have seen, and so far I am under impressed. There are quite a few craftsmen on this board alone, that do far and away better work than what I've seen shown on that show, and most of these guys don't have to BS their crafts in order to impress anyone.

 

[smo]

I recievied a reply back from the History channel shortly after I sent the email. It stated my reply was being reviewed by their staff. I'll see if I hear anything else back from them. :idunno:

 

[Artificer]

The first time I was acquainted with Herschel House was at the 1980 International Muzzleloading Association World Championships, held at the Weapons Training Battalion Ranges on Marine Corps Base Quantico, VA.

Hershel brought (I think) 9 other gents with him and they all had reproduction flintlock rifles and all dressed as Longhunters/Frontiersmen. They came to shoot the (I think) 10 man Team Match as an exhibition because the World IMA organization did not yet allow reproductions in the World Matches. I keep writing "I think" because it may have been an 8 man Team Match, I'm sorry I just don't remember. (Later on the World Association did allow reproduction guns in "Repro" matches of their other matches and this exhibition no doubt helped to start it.)

Hershel and those boys would have won the Team Match had they actually been allowed to shoot in competition, they did that well and by a respectable score.

Now I am going on ground I am not so certain sure of, so don't take this as written in stone. As I understand it, Hershel and his brother did not try to accurately copy any rifle making school, but sort of made up another school, even though they handmade many of the parts of their guns. I do not remember if they made their own locks and barrels, though I think they could and did make some of their barrels. Hopefully, others will have more and better information on them.

Gus

 

[Gene L]

Casey test-firing the rifle off the shoulder doesn't bother me. With modern steel (non-strip welded) barrels are safe. Eye protection? Maybe so, not everyone does. I'm new to flintlocks so don't know much about how it's done.

 

[Artificer]

Casey test-firing the rifle off the shoulder doesn't bother me. With modern steel (non-strip welded) barrels are safe. Eye protection? Maybe so, not everyone does. I'm new to flintlocks so don't know much about how it's done.

Perhaps I am more concerned than many others because I was actually on a range when a modern rifle blew up in a shooter's face. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way the gun was built. HP White Laboratory confirmed it was the modern barrel was made from the wrong steel. The barrel maker had paid for certified steel, but the mill sent the wrong steel.

Even IF there is nothing wrong with the barrel steel, something might not have been right with fitting the breech plug. That is DEFINITELY the time one needs eye protection for the first shot, at least, to ensure no hot gas comes into a shooter's eye.

I have personally seen other things go wrong with ML and modern guns, when purchased used and even sometimes new.

IMO, it just does not make sense to shoot a gun for the first time without eye protection.

Gus

 

[smo]

The first time I was acquainted with Herschel House was at the 1980 International Muzzleloading Association World Championships, held at the Weapons Training Battalion Ranges on Marine Corps Base Quantico, VA.

Hershel brought (I think) 9 other gents with him and they all had reproduction flintlock rifles and all dressed as Longhunters/Frontiersmen. They came to shoot the (I think) 10 man Team Match as an exhibition because the World IMA organization did not yet allow reproductions in the World Matches. I keep writing "I think" because it may have been an 8 man Team Match, I'm sorry I just don't remember. (Later on the World Association did allow reproduction guns in "Repro" matches of their other matches and this exhibition no doubt helped to start it.)

Hershel and those boys would have won the Team Match had they actually been allowed to shoot in competition, they did that well and by a respectable score.


Gus

Do you remember the names of any of the other shooters in the group?

 

[Artificer]

Do you remember the names of any of the other shooters in the group?

I am afraid I do not, but as I understood it they were all from Kentucky or around there. I think Hershel's brother (Frank?) was there and firing as well, but am not sure of that. Good Heavens, that was almost 36 years ago.

I was the "Crisis Control NCOIC" for that shoot on the Support Staff directly under Jim Land and I hardly got a chance to speak with the shooters I knew from NSSA and Friendship, let alone anyone I had not met and/or shot with before.

Gus

 

[Gene L]

Casey test-firing the rifle off the shoulder doesn't bother me. With modern steel (non-strip welded) barrels are safe. Eye protection? Maybe so, not everyone does. I'm new to flintlocks so don't know much about how it's done.

Perhaps I am more concerned than many others because I was actually on a range when a modern rifle blew up in a shooter's face. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way the gun was built. HP White Laboratory confirmed it was the modern barrel was made from the wrong steel. The barrel maker had paid for certified steel, but the mill sent the wrong steel.

Even IF there is nothing wrong with the barrel steel, something might not have been right with fitting the breech plug. That is DEFINITELY the time one needs eye protection for the first shot, at least, to ensure no hot gas comes into a shooter's eye.

I have personally seen other things go wrong with ML and modern guns, when purchased used and even sometimes new.

IMO, it just does not make sense to shoot a gun for the first time without eye protection.

Gus

A valid point, Gus. Was the blow-up on the first round fired from the rifle, or was it a case of metal fatigue after a number of rounds? Also, did anyone get hurt?

I say this having always trusted the guns I own to be safe...maybe this is false confidence. However, at some point a guy has to go for broke and shoot the gun off his shoulder.

The only eye protection I own is a pair ofsunglasses, less than ideal for the finding the fine front sight, but a piece of iron in the eye is infinitely worse.

 

[Artificer]

A valid point, Gus. Was the blow-up on the first round fired from the rifle, or was it a case of metal fatigue after a number of rounds? Also, did anyone get hurt?

I say this having always trusted the guns I own to be safe...maybe this is false confidence. However, at some point a guy has to go for broke and shoot the gun off his shoulder.

It happened on about the 16h shot fired from a brand new barrel. It had already been function fired 10 times and did not show anything wrong up to that point. The shooter's score book already had five rounds recorded he had shot when it happened, as I recall.

Yes, the Shooter was injured though Thank God he was wearing a heavy leather shooting jacket over two sweatshirts, some of the very best shooting glasses made in 1975, and double ear protection. A piece of the receiver cut his cheek as it flew by, there were pieces of brass and steel imbedded in his shooting glasses, other cuts and abrasions on his face. The barrel opened up like a banana at both the breech and muzzle and shattered the flash suppressor. This also caused the barrel receiver ring to bust open and come apart in pieces. The forestock shattered and that actually caused the worst damage as it forced shards from the stock THROUGH the leather shooting coat and two sweatshirts into his left arm and cutting and imbedding into his skin, but did not cause permanent damage. He had to have quite a few stitches, though.


One thing I was taught as a NM Gunsmith when initially "function" firing a rifle was to turn it on it's side. Snug the butt plate into the thigh of a leg and hold it sideways with leather gloves lower down from your head. This was in case something did go wrong, the rifle would be further away from your eyes and head. The rifle that blew up had been function fired that way before the shooter started shooting it.

I do this on modern and ML rifles for the first few rounds to this day, when firing guns I build or guns that are "new" to me. ONLY after I do that, then I shoot it from the shoulder.

Gus

 

[Gene L]

From what you said, I take it the gun was a smokeless gun? Sends shivers down my spine.

America doesn't have a state-mandated proof house like most of Europe does, although most (?) mfgs. do test theirs, or at least one of a lot.

 

[Artificer]

It was a suppository gun, BUT there is something to learn about testing from it. Proof Testing is only done in most of the European Proof Houses at 25 to at most 30 percent above the standard loads. Further, most proof houses only shoot the gun once or twice at most. The problem there is the gun could fail on only a few to some shots after the proofing is done. Same thing can happen with muzzle loading guns when the extremely small chance you get a bad barrel or breech plug.

I guess I have been fortunate in that for most of my shooting life, I had to wear glasses and I had safety lenses put in those glasses, even Original and Reproduction 18th century glasses I've owned over the years.

Now that I've had surgery in one eye for a torn retina and both eyes for cataracts, I bought a GOOD pair of modern shooting glasses and always shoot with them - whether suppository or muzzle loading guns and ESPECIALLY when shooting an original, used or new gun for the first few times.

Gus

 

[Gene L]

I'm lucky; at 71 my eyes are better after cataract surgery than they were at 24. I'll have to buy shooting glasses, I guess.

 

[LRB]

I'm also 71, in line, and waiting for my turn at cataract surgery. In July I was told.

 

[Gene L]

I'm also 71, in line, and waiting for my turn at cataract surgery. In July I was told.

It takes about six minutes per eye, and they only do one eye at a time. I highly recommend it. I've still got an astigmatism, but my acuity has dramatically improved.

Getting old isn't for the faint of heart.

 

[Rick Boylan]

Last year during my eye exam I was told I'm starting to develop a cataract in my right eye (my shooting/dominant eye). I'm still years away from needing surgery but it's starting to make my eye a little blurry. Nice to know that they can correct it and make my vision better.

I agree 100% with you about the need for shooting glasses, hearing protection, etc. I've written to the network about the show and suggested that they stress the importance of properly proofing the gun, wearing eye and ear protection. This will go a long way towards putting those ideas in the minds of people watching the show.

I know the suggestions we write them will not show up until they film the next season (if it gets another season), but it's worth trying to educate the guys who are making the show.

 

[Commodore Swab]

How many indian built unproofed undrilled guns are supplied to this country? How many are in private hands? How many owners of those might watch the show?

Now what happens when someone reads about proof loads being a double load and ball and then decides to "proof" their new gun in a group.

 

[Rick Boylan]

Good questions, but if anyone watches a show and gets all their ideas of gun safety from said show, then they would probably remove themselves from the gene pool sooner or later. I never look to hollywood or tv shows for answers to such things. They are there for entertainment, not instructions.

 

[LRB]

How many indian built unproofed undrilled guns are supplied to this country? How many are in private hands? How many owners of those might watch the show?

Now what happens when someone reads about proof loads being a double load and ball and then decides to "proof" their new gun in a group.

EXACTLY Commodore! You get it.

 

[smo]

I saw a rifle built by the shows host Daniel Casey posted on the CLA site :idunno:

 

[Black Hand]

Just out of morbid curiosity, I switched channels last night to see if the show had improved. I saw his kid rasping for 5 seconds on the crookedest lance haft I've seen and a spearhead that looked like it was pounded out of a fence post. After a minute or so, they flashed over to the yammering bearded idiot and I quickly changed the channel.

Still has not improved...