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yuenway

Pilgrim
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I've noticed in reading about Bunkerhill, that the colonist thought they could engage the regulars at distances much further then the Brown Bess's effective range (abt 50 yards). Philbrick's book mentions 200 yards and Ketchem's mentions 25 rods (abt 140 yards). thinking it might have to do with the Fowler sometimes longer barrel.
i have also heard of Fowlers with partially rifled barrels any truth to that.

any other thoughts on the subject??
 
We have to keep in mind that at least some of the colonists had rifles. Did your reference specify if they were taking these up to 200 yard shots with smoothbores, or is this just speculation? I have no doubt that a PRB fired from a smoothbore will go 200+ yards, and if you shoot enough of them, you will hit something eventually. The trick is going to be figuring out the hold-over and then repeating it for every shot after that once you figure out the drop, or should I say your hold. I haven't shot my shoothbore .54 at 200 yds yet, but I have also shot very few shots at 100yds, so I will start there and work my way further out eventually.
 
From what I have shot with my smoothy at 100 yards I believe a mass volley at 200 yards will indeed hit an enemy column at 200 yards. Whether it was the solder you aimed at or the guy next to him made little difference.

However, I would also think a 200 yard shot was left to the riflemen in the group. But the militiaman was usually not as well-disciplined as the British regulars. All we know is that the authors reported what they saw but with little details.

A longer barrel will give you a bit more velocity but not enough to make the ball fly any straighter over a long distance. It is thought that the longer barrel was necessary to compensated for the poor powder performance of the day.

The only smoothbores that I have heard of with rifling were the British Paradox shotguns of the 19th century with the last 6 inches rifled to stabilize a ball but not disrupt the shot string.

Also with the use of the mini-ball, smoothbore muskets were rifled, again a 19th century adaptation.

I suppose a smooth rifle could have a trace of the rifling remaining from the reaming operation of converting it to a smoothbore. But this is just speculation. :hmm:

I personally have never heard of an 18th century rifled fowler, from my experience any significant rifling really screws up the shoot pattern.
 
We have to keep in mind that at least some of the colonists had rifles.

Well....yes...that's where the Riflemen came from.But more often these were woodsmen, frontiersmen who needed rifles for their lifestyle.
When we speak of shooting range in the Rev. context, I keep in mind that few people are capable of judging ranges and those stories are just like fish stories. The fish gets bigger with every telling. Misses are seldom part of legend. But the occasional long range hit is what stories are made of.
And, again, yes, a musket ball can carry a long distance and may hit an enemy even if he is standing several feet from the intended target.
 
The British were interested in mass volley fire rather than aimed shots. The ball fit in the cartridges was none too tight.

Also, if lucky a regular soldier might get five practice rounds a year.

The colonists, however, practiced and hunted with their firelocks and knew them very well.

A Bess does very well with a proper fitting ball. I had no problems keeping to 8" groups at 60 yards and often could do better.
 
I agree with you there. Paper cartridge vs tight fiting ball the privatly owned fowler would out shoot a bess. Lot of folk are sure smoothies were never patched in the old days,but even without a patch a .610 or .615 in a .62 will out shoot a bess.The fact the they might use some good fibery wads would also blow into a tight wedge around the ball.Them who today are of the "no patch on smooth bore"mind set often shoot sans patch today with repotedly very good results. Test in France about 1800 showed 18% hits on company sized target at 300 yards. The target was 6 feet high and 100 feet long. Real people in such a line would pobably have 30% of that space so a 100 man company shooting at a 100 man company might 6 hits at that range
 
Well it's well known that the Colonials at Breeds Hill (Bunker Hill) held their fire until the British, who were attacking up hill, were close. This was in part because the Colonials were short of ammunition, and probably because the Colonials knew that when firing down hill you naturally shoot high. Thinking you could hit a target at 200 yards on level gound is not the same as actually doing it on uneven ground in a battle.

Yes the loads used in hunting would give a Colonial an advantage over the British military ammunition used in their musket, as the British were interested in quick reloading, which necessitated a much smaller ball to overcome fouling, and this then necessitated volley firing. The British soldier was trained, regularly, to "fire-at-marks" folks. But as the ammo was naturally a bit inaccurate, the marks were at 50 paces or less. Light Infantry were trained in marksmanship at about twice that range.

The disadvantage of the Colonials using hunting ammunition, is they would, after a few rounds, need to swab a bore, while the British could use their whole ammuntion box of 18 - 24 rounds without cleaning. So if you can hit and run against the Brits such as happened when the Brits returned to Boston from Lexington and Concord..., you can cause a lot of damage.

Now a lot of faith is placed in the experience of the American colonial and his firearm, but folks, even by the 1860's where there were rifled pieces and precision sights, expert hunters such as Forsyth were making 90% of thier shots at under 100 yards. YES there were some folks renoun in history for much farther shots..., as they were the exception, not the norm. :grin:

In a pitched battle though, the Continental Army used ammo just as the British did, and often were broken by British bayonet charges. So the Continentals started choosing to fight where they had a fence or two to break up the British bayonet charge, and give them time to back up, usually to the next fence. (very smart fellows)

Good luck even with accurate ammunition in hitting a line of enemy soldiers at 200 yards with a musket. You have to be trained to correctly estimate the range, the ground has to be very level, and then you have to correctly elevate the musket. (That has to be done for all 100 men in each company) At that range very slight deviations will make you shoot under or over your target. PLUS the British fought at open order, meaning there was at a minimum one arm length between the files of the men, so you have more room for a miss at more than 100 yards.

Given laboratory conditions you could get a company of men to hit at several hundred yards, but the practical application under battlefield conditions was far different. So although some armies opened fire at 100 yards, effective hits didn't really begin with muskets until one reach about 60 yards. At that range you have time for one volley if the enemy is advancing, for if they then charge they will be on you before you can fire the second volley. So you might was well wait until they are at around 30 yards, hammer them with close to 100% hits with your one volley, and if they haven't been decimated, you then charge at them.

They weren't stupid folks. If they could've had reasonably gotten hits beyond 100 yards and so hamper or disperse an enemy unit at that range why did that not happen until the rifled musket came along? :hmm: Under battlefield conditions the had to get close.


LD
 
From the experiments I did with Native American trade gun loads of powder/wadding/ ball vs. patched round ball. A smooth bore can produce a hunting size group (8 inches or so) at 50 yards with a number of ball sizes. A big advantage if you do not cast your own balls.

While there is scant evidence of the patched round ball in the native culture, it is obvious that a smooth rifle shooter coming from a rifle tradition would be familiar with the PRB.

It would be interesting to know the number of rifle vs. smoothbores in the different militia groups. I would suspect the various Kentucky militias ratios to be quite different from the New England militias ratios.

What I find curious is that all the information I have found on 18th century white settlers using smoothbores indicates the use of powder/wad/ball, yet they certainly were aware of the PRB used in the long rifle. Perhaps it was tradition or patching the ball was simply not considered worth the effort. :idunno:

Finally, I think there is some merit to the comment that people tend to exaggerate the performance and down play the failures over time. Something do not change. :grin:
 
All so true,+ the feeling that honor demanded face to face mano on mano. the americans were also very short of ammo and couldn't aford to waste. As far as the great long range shooting I doubt there were many oppertunities to practice that until the frontier moved on to the plains. At the end until the comming of the rifled musket the musket was treated likew a spear that could shoot. Shades of Achillies and Hector looking on.
 
It would be interesting to know the number of rifle vs. smoothbores in the different militia groups. I would suspect the various Kentucky militias ratios to be quite different from the New England militias ratios.

rifles were almost unknown in new england at the time. rifles were new tech. which made morgan such a hit.
 
[color=green] Light Infantry were trained in marksmanship at about twice that range.

[/color] PLUS the British fought at open order, meaning there was at a minimum one arm length between the files of the men, so you have more room for a miss at more than 100 yards.

Lessons learned from the Howe brothers in the french and indian war.

They weren't stupid folks. If they could've had reasonably gotten hits beyond 100 yards and so hamper or disperse an enemy unit at that range why did that not happen until the rifled musket came along? :hmm: Under battlefield conditions the had to get close.

all my reading says the brown bess was good to up too 50- 80 yards. maybe 100. if the new englanders were using the almost same equipment why did they think they could push it out so far. yes battlefield conditions are different but almost 1/3 of the militia and most of the officer corps had experience in the french and indian war.
 
John adams wrote his wife about these amaazing guns the frontiesman had with threaded barrels and massechcetts folks were amazed to see a company of men hit a 9 inch by 6 inch shingle at 60 yards
 
I have also found that even in modern situations you ask any soldier that fired, he will tell you that he don't know about anyone else, but the rounds he fired all hit. Adrenalin is a powerful aphrodisiac. Tend to believe that at Bunker/Breeds hill, given the shortage of ammunition on the Continentals part, "whites of their eyes" shooting was the rule. Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
Ranges up to 400 yards were noted in linear warfare between two opposing lines. So 200 yards seems reasonable. A smoothbore loaded personally rather than militarily would probably give more accuracy inherently than a military musket loaded with military paper cartridge ammo. Some colonists did have rifles. Alot of civilian smoothbores had extremely long barrels of up to six feet. So I imagine you would get some accuracy out of it.
 
One thing to consider is that it is easier to get a smaller smoothbore to fire the ball at over the speed of sound than it is a Bess, just by adding more powder and increasing the effective range of the shot , the milita officers knew this as most had experience in the F&I war and in local fights with Indians between wars . Although a bit later then the AWI in Flinder's journals as a Middshipman in combat against French Navy there is mention of closing to within musket shot of a French ship , he then adds 300yards in reference to this coment .
 
one thing to consider too, is that colonial arms were often very poor quality. fowling pieces were often made from recycled parts from used muskets or other fowling pieces. it is even documented that some fowlers have recycled matchlock barrels. also, like the brown bess, there was a large variation in bore diameters based on the manufacturing technology of the time and in the case of fowling pieces, previous use and abuse.
 
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