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need pics of Isaac Haines rifles

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GreyWhiskers

69 Cal.
Joined
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I want to build a flint rifle and am leaning towards an Isaac Haines kit. Have looked for pics of original rlfles. TOW catalog mentions that there are plenty examples of Haines rifles in a book titled "Behold the Longrifle" authored by Roy Chandler and James Whisker. TOW doesn't sell that book and the copies I have located are about $200. Way more than I want to spend. :hmm:

Does anybody have pics of original Isaac Haines rilfes they could email to me? Or have you seen examples of his work in more common books?
 
The only detailed pics I've ever seen of Haines' work were in Volume One of Shumway's "Rifles Of Colonial America". I have a limited number of photocopies of certain pages from that back, but whether they'd be of help to you I'm not sure. I would be happy to mail them to you if you liked.

Any library will do an inter-library loan for you, wherein they locate the book you're looking for, borrow it from the library that owns it, and lets you have it for a short while (long enough to go nuts with a Xerox machine :haha:). The most this service will cost you is the postage, and most libraries waive even that.

I recall "ROCA" having multiple detailed views and written dimensions of at least four Haines rifles.
 
grey whiskers said:
I want to build a flint rifle and am leaning towards an Isaac Haines kit. Have looked for pics of original rlfles. TOW catalog mentions that there are plenty examples of Haines rifles in a book titled "Behold the Longrifle" authored by Roy Chandler and James Whisker. TOW doesn't sell that book and the copies I have located are about $200. Way more than I want to spend. :hmm:


Does anybody have pics of original Isaac Haines rilfes they could email to me? Or have you seen examples of his work in more common books?
Hey Whiskers, here's one that a fella had for sale. Don't know if it'll help ya. Maybe he can send you more pics...Bud
Link
 
With a "faux" brush. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Lord I appologize for making such a dumb joke... :nono: :redface: It's been a wierd morning compounded by not enough coffee yet.

It is a nice finish. I wonder if you could use a blueing solution and a fine brush to stripe and then use the browning over the entire surface. Kind of like the faux finish on some Henry trad rifles. :hmm:
 
Mongrel, thanks for the info. I hadn't thought about using the public library. I'll try to find one or both of the books.

I'm just curious about the original Haines rifles. Want to know what calibers they were made in and what types of hardware they were outfitted with. Brass or iron? My rifle probably won't be and exact replica but I still want to know what the originals were like.
 
grey whiskers said:
Thanks for the link. Interesting looking rifle.
I wouldn't use that gun as an example of an Issac Haines rifle. Get Shumway's Vol 1 if you want to know what Issac Haines work was like.
 
barebackjack said:
How do they do that "faux damascus" finish on the barrel?

Me like.

Boone

I've a book somewhere, that desribes it. Best of my memory you take a piece of string and soak it in either nitric or sufuric acid and wrap it around the barrel. Then finish the barrel as normal, but I'll check tonight to be sure.

Scott
 
There are four Haines rifles in Shumway, vol 1, pp 326-33. Each one has several paragraphs of description and then three to four pages of black and white photos. One way or another, you're going to need this volume or copies of these pages.
If you can afford it, buy this volume, or both vols 1 and 2 (I got mine from TOW). Even if you're mainly interested in the Haines rifles, you'll find you spend hours looking at all the other pictures in the book. I think these two volumes are indispensible for any appreciation of colonial American rifles, and I feel what I've learned from them has easily repaid the investment.
 
Well, I have the pictures I xeroxed from #78, #80, and #81, with the written descriptions of #78 and #80. #78 and #81 had similar carving at the wrist and the skirt of the rear ramrod pipe, so I took the photocopies of #81 (which showed the carving better than the copies I made of #78) and included them with the photos of #78. These all came from "Rifles Of Colonial America", by the way.

Completely lost yet?

Anyway, #78, which Shumway dates at approximately 1772 to 1776 (Haines began work as a gunsmith in '72, and by '76 the gunsmiths of Pennsylvania were being pressured to build muskets rather than rifles), has a swamped octagonal barrel, 44 1/16" long and .56 caliber, smoothbored, 1 1/16" at the breech. The lockplate (a percussion conversion) is 5 5/16" long and of Germanic styling. The brass buttplate is 5" long and 2 3/32" wide, and is of the style sold as a "Haines" or "Bivins" pattern these days.

#80, which Shumway dates in the 1780's, has a walnut stock with no carving whatsoever done to it (thus blowing a .57 caliber hole in the statement that "all" correct Pennsylvania rifles are stocked in curly maple and relief carved). The caliber, as my little joke indicates, is .57, smoothbored, and the swamped barrel is 47 5/32" long, with a 1 1/16" breech. The buttplate of this rifle is 4 15/16" by 2", and of a slightly more generic "Lancaster" style that is also to be found on guns of the same time period from York, Reading, and other nearby areas.

The calibers of these rifles -- smoothrifles, to be precisely correct -- don't tell you much. A lot of so-called rifles never were, but were born with smooth bores; however, a lot of others were originally rifled and later reamed smooth as the Indians and big game disappeared from the east and the need for a heavy-caliber rifle went away with them. Grampa's old tackdriver became a smoothbored "pot" gun, and in such cases there is no way of knowing what caliber they were originally.

The hardware of both rifles, as well as that of #81 (and of all but two of the couple dozen or so Pennsylvania and Southern rifles I photocopied from ROCA, "Thoughts On The Kentucky Rifle In Its Golden Age" [Kindig], and "Kentucky Rifles And Pistols, 1750-1850" [Johnston]), is entirely of brass. Iron shows up only on what is very clearly a typical Tennessee Mountain Rifle, and a crudely-made piece that likely dates to the Revolution and appears to have been put together by someone whose woodworking was adequate-to-good and whose ironworking skills were adequate at best. The wax-cast, steel versions of Haines' and other gunsmiths' hardware are intended to cater to modern gunmakers and their customers, rather than to provide a historically correct option to brass. Iron was at best a rare and uncommonly seen material on rifles, and only slightly more often used on muskets, when you're talking about guns contemporary to Haines' work. I dislike making sweeping statements that include the words "all" or "never", but the term "vast majority of the time" is correct in describing how often pre-1800 guns were stocked in brass as opposed to iron.

Hope this is of help to you. Do acquire copies of "Rifles Of Colonial America", both volumes, and if you're borrowing them from a library have access to a good xerox machine arranged when they arrive. You'll find lots worth keeping for later reference and use.
 
Mongrel,

Thanks much. This is exactly the kind of information I am looking for. I'm going make an effort to come up with some reference books like "Rifles of Colonial America" and others. Then spend time picking out the rifle features I like the most.

Thanks also to the rest who posted info for me. This forum is the best source of ML info I've run into. :grin:
 
There was a fairly long article by George Shumway in Nov 83 issue of Muzzle Blasts that had photos of four Haines rifles along with a lot of biographical info.
I think he also covered these guns in Rifles of Colonial America. Perhaps you could get a copy of
this issue from NMLRA (cheaper than the book !!).

Good luck
Paul

I forgot to mention that I have a copy of the article and could send it to you if you need it,
but the pictures in the magazine would be better than my xerox copy.
 
Reviving an old post because I am looking to build a stylistically similar rifle to the Number 80 Issac Haines gun in Shumway. Does anyone have access to newer or clearer photos of the gun? Specifically, I am trying to determine whether the octagon to round transition is a wedding band or a taper.
 
Hi,
Shumway simply wrote it had an octagon smooth bored barrel. No mention of octagon to round and it looks to be full octagon to the muzzle in the photos, although it is not very clear. Many smooth rifles had full swamped octagon barrels.

dave
 
It’s fun to build a look-alike (I’ve done a dozen of those I guess) but it’s also likely that gunsmiths then used a wide variety of barrels, depending on what was available. So some latitude is certainly “ok”. When we look at prolific builders like Dickert we see a lot of variability.

As an aside I’ve got a very light Germanic gun with a big bore barrel that is octagonal end to end. At first I thought it was smoothbored but it has shallow straight rifling.

Most octagon to round barrels offered today have an exaggerated wedding band compared to most originals. They also often have a bigger step-down than I like. Spanish barrels are often an exception but they were costly and likely rare on colonial smoothbores, except for secondary use. I usually hand file the transition from octagon to round on today’s offerings.
 
Greywhiskers, you may have reviewed this already, but earlier this year Dave Person built Haines #81 (RCA) for me from a Chambers kit and documented the build in this forum. There are some original pics in the thread of some Haines work. In addition, you might get some good pointers on the kit used and what Dave did to turn it into a beautiful contemporary copy of Haines' work. I wish the kit would have had a 44"+ barrel like the original instead of a 38", but all the decoration is still the same.

RCA is a good reference, but I do wish they had good quality color photos.

In case you haven't seen it, a link is below:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-chambers-isaac-haines-rifle-kit.116533/
 
I want to build a flint rifle and am leaning towards an Isaac Haines kit. Have looked for pics of original rlfles. TOW catalog mentions that there are plenty examples of Haines rifles in a book titled "Behold the Longrifle" authored by Roy Chandler and James Whisker. TOW doesn't sell that book and the copies I have located are about $200. Way more than I want to spend. :hmm:

Does anybody have pics of original Isaac Haines rilfes they could email to me? Or have you seen examples of his work in more common books?
Greywhiskers, you may have reviewed this already, but earlier this year Dave Person built Haines #81 (RCA) for me from a Chambers kit and documented the build in this forum. There are some original pics in the thread of some Haines work. In addition, you might get some good pointers on the kit used and what Dave did to turn it into a beautiful contemporary copy of Haines' work. I wish the kit would have had a 44"+ barrel like the original instead of a 38", but all the decoration is still the same.

RCA is a good reference, but I do wish they had good quality color photos.

In case you haven't seen it, a link is below:

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-chambers-isaac-haines-rifle-kit.116533/
Hi,
Shumway simply wrote it had an octagon smooth bored barrel. No mention of octagon to round and it looks to be full octagon to the muzzle in the photos, although it is not very clear. Many smooth rifles had full swamped octagon barrels.

dave
I want to build a flint rifle and am leaning towards an Isaac Haines kit. Have looked for pics of original rlfles. TOW catalog mentions that there are plenty examples of Haines rifles in a book titled "Behold the Longrifle" authored by Roy Chandler and James Whisker. TOW doesn't sell that book and the copies I have located are about $200. Way more than I want to spend. :hmm:

Does anybody have pics of original Isaac Haines rilfes they could email to me? Or have you seen examples of his work in more common books?
Most Isaac Haines kits include a 38" bbl while his actual LRs had bbls in the 44"-47" range. One smoothbore has a bbl w/ a 38" bbl. Don Getz the bbl maker introduced a Haines kit many years ago and found that his stock profiler would not accommodate bbls over 38"....so that's what he used. Ever after most of the Haines kits have the 38" bbl. I'm partial to much longer bbls than 38" and have never built a Haines LR, but if I had, 44" would have been the minimum. I imagine that to use a 44" bbl., a blank build would be necessary....Fred
 

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