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Navy Arms 12ga. SXS

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Old Charlie

45 Cal.
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
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I got out the double barrel today. Dove season starts here Sat. I loaded it with 65 grains of 3f Goex ans a100 grain measure of 71/2 shot. One over powder wad and one over shot card. First shot out of each barrel was about the same as last year not great but I could live with it. Around 65 to 68 shot on a 81/2 X 11 letter sized paper.
Every shot after was pitiful! I was only getting about 15 shot, if that many on the paper with either barrel! I tried changing a few things but nothing helped. It started raining and I had to call it a day. Will try again tomorrow weather permitting. It has me bumfuseled at present. No way am I going to try to clean after every shot.
Old Charlie
 
I know it has been discussed many times and others have ways they use and prefer. But, I too hunted doves Sunday. I was shooting my SxS 14ga. and I do use about 1/4" of a fiber cushion that had been soaked in virgin olive oil and drained. I had a good count on doves, about 20 shots from one barrel and about 5 shots from the other barrel and I can't feel the first sign of any fouling. Patterns are good, doves fall dead. I am shooting 2 3/4dr. (about75gr.) of 2F Schuetzen, 1oz. of 7 1/2's. Over powder card, the 1/4" fiber cushion and an over shot card. I can't imagine trying to be in a dove field or trap line, without lubing the barrel. Been there, done that, won't do that again. I use the very same loads in my 12ga. and I can't tell the difference.
 
Old Charlie said:
No way am I going to try to clean after every shot.

Might have to, friend. Part of blackpowder hunting is accepting the limitations inherent to our guns.

I don't know what the problem is in this case, and I hope you are able to figure something out before the dove season opener. But as things are now, I have to think your best option is to run a quick spit patch down the bore after each shot.

By the way, I had a Navy Arms SxS in 12 gauge a few years back. Mine was made by Pietta and I could never make it shoot well, ignition problems in my case. I loved the gun other than that and have come to believe there may have been some sort of manufacturer's defect in that particular gun (a gun builder friend could do no better than I with the gun and that was what he thought). I would like to have another one...

Good luck and please do tell us what you figure out and how you do.

Spot
 
I owned and shot one for many years, and I'm with Dave on the solution. You need a well-lubed felt cushion wad between the powder and shot, preferably with an overshot card on top of the wad.

I'm guessing that the first shots were okay because the barrel was clean, but the others went to pieces because the barrel was fouled enough to interfere.

You shoudn't have to swab between shots with a lubed felt in there- I never needed to with mine. But I'd expect performance just like yours if I left the lubed wad out of mine.
 
I put some olive oil on some fiber cushion
wads last night as suggested by Dave K. I will try that later today if the rain holds off.
Old Charlie
 
Old Charlie said:
I got out the double barrel today. Dove season starts here Sat. I loaded it with 65 grains of 3f Goex ans a100 grain measure of 71/2 shot. One over powder wad and one over shot card. First shot out of each barrel was about the same as last year not great but I could live with it. Around 65 to 68 shot on a 81/2 X 11 letter sized paper.
Every shot after was pitiful! I was only getting about 15 shot, if that many on the paper with either barrel! I tried changing a few things but nothing helped. It started raining and I had to call it a day. Will try again tomorrow weather permitting. It has me bumfuseled at present. No way am I going to try to clean after every shot.
Old Charlie


You're using 3f. Not good in a 12. It will spread out your pattern. Using 2f will tighten that pattern up. If your using 65 of 3f try starting with 70 or so of 2f.

I'm sure you can get much better patterns.
 
The barrel has to be lubed to get good patterns. And the powder charges should be modest. Stay under 1100 fps at the muzzle. I recommend using FFg vs. FFFg in your shotgun. Dave's use of a 1/4 cushion wad soaked and drained in olive oil sounds like a good sensible approach for hunting. I have been using 1/2 cushion wads soaked in Moose milk( Water soluable oil, lestoil, and water- shake to mix before using) but I frankly don't see much improvement with the liquid detergent in the mix. And straight oil- even cheap cooking oil would do just fine on these wads. Keep them in a plastic sandwich baggie to keep them from drying out.

I have also been lubing my barrel with wonderlube on a cleaning patch after seating the OS card. That also works.

Lube not only helps the shot go down the barrel without rubbing lead off on it, to ruin subsequent patterns, but it insures that fouling does not stick in the barrel, also causing subsequent shots to not pattern well. Lead rubbing against steel is going to leave flat spots on the pellets. These pellets will fly out of the pattern very quickly after leaving the bore. To the extent that you can protect the lead from rubbing off on the barrel, your patterns have to improve. You do that by lubing the bore, ( when you run that lubed cushion wad down the barrel) and by reducing the velocity of the load. Reducing velocity also reduces pressure, and its the higher pressure that forces lead shot against the sides of the bore, and rubs the flats on them. FFFg powder burns too fast, giving you higher pressure, even with a reduced charge, so that you still get more flats rubbed on the outside pellets than if you were to use FFg powder. Then there is also the problem of the " Kick in the Ass " syndrome, whereby when using fast burning powders, the initial slam of gases into the wads causes the back, or bottom, 2-3 rows of shot to be flattened by the weight of the forward or upper pellets of shot. Flat pellets do not fly through air as well as round pellets, and round pellets have a terrrible Ballistic Coefficient to begin with. So, give your shot a softer push, rather than a " kick in the ass " to get it moving down the barrel. Your patterns will be better.

The use of cushion wads was done to help keep those bottom rows of shot from being deformed by the firing, and the concept is necessary even more today using smokeless powders at higher pressures. That is why you see cushions of all kinds of different designs on the bottom side of the plastic shotcups. Those pellets are going to be deformed substantially, unless buffered, with the higher velocities used in modern shotgun shells.
 
I read somewhere that you should place an OS card over the cushion wad to avoid the bottom row of shot becoming embedded in the wad with the force of the blast.
Don't know if this is actually the case but it seems to make sense.
 
That is a practice I began to do when I first began shooting my BP shotgun. I found that my patterns improved from ragged, to rounded ragged doing that. I was using a full cushion wad, soaked in moose milk, which gave it a substantial weight. I have stopped doing that, and now am going to use only OS cards for both OP wads, and OS cards, per Iron Jim Rackham's advise here on the forum. i will continue to lube my barrel after seating the OS cards on top of the shot.
 
Veg. Oil works well also, except, I will turn rancid in time and olive oil doesn't. I usually make up about 200+ at time and place them in a ziplock bag. I may use them all this year and I may have some left over until next year. The veg. oil ones still work fine, but they can get smelly. :barf:
 
Dave I tried the olive oil wads and it made a huge difference. I am getting a pretty good pattern. Dove season opens at noon today. Now if I can get this old body to move fast enough I just might hit a dove for the first time I many years.
Old Charlie
 
I don,t use cushioned wads in my M/L but when loading a cartridge I place a O/S card on the cushion wad ever since recovering a wad and finding some shot enbedded in it!
 
Glad it worked for you also. Now go out and get them. You know, I have a good number of both ML'ing shotguns and breechloaders. I like the ML'er ones, because I am lazy and don't have to pick up hulls after a good shoot. I also don't have them plastic wads cluttering up the landscape. I find that my bag number with the ML'ers is every bit as productive, if not more so, than the breechloaders. :wink:
 

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