MVTC's New England Fowler

[weirdjack]

I did a search here and on some other sites, read all the posts about the Middlesex Village Trading Company "New England Fowler". But I haven't seen any really recent posts on these guns. They've been out since May now, should be a lot of folks with them already. I just talked with MVTC and the lot of NEF's arriving in 2 weeks is presold. I'm now on the waiting list for the order arriving in a couple of months from now.
Sooooooooooo......who has one? How do they shoot? Any new pros and/or cons about them? Who's refinished one? How are they holding up? Etc, etc, etc.
I've been shooting a Navy Arms Charleville as my smoothie for years now. I like the .69 bore, I don't like the straight military stock much though. I considered the Military Heritage 1728 French Musket, but I'm trying to escape the French military
The MVTC Fowler looks like a perfect match for me "earlier than RevWar" smoothbore needs and still stay with the .69 bore I like and am used to. I basically shoot light (50 grains 2F) charges behind a roundball at the club punching paper or light shot loads for hunting.
Ah well...now I have two months to cast up a huge stack of roundballs in preparation!
Jack

 

[Mike Brooks]

I saw some pictures of one last week. It looks like a new england fowler in a cartoon sort of way. Honestly I'm shocked that a functioning flintlock can be produced and sold finished for less than I can buy the parts for in this country. Do you suppose those Indians/Pakistanies that make those guns make even $1.00 an hour? Well, you'll get what you pay for in the end.
One day we'll all be flipping burgers for a living since absolutly everything will be manufactured in a third world nation.
NAFTA, you gotta love it..... :shake:

 

[wes1761]

Jack,

I got one of the long land besses, really happy with it, sure the finish could be re-done, but it's not even remotely close to some of the earlier clunky india guns I have seen and re-done. I was so happy with mine I became a ditributor for them. Now I just need to get an inventory!!

 

[Okwaho]

Mike, I'm with you on this one.It looks really clunky in the wrist and comb.I think that with the removal of a bunch of wood both there and especially from under the lock and sideplate panels as well as the forestock,it would look a lot better.I don't know what's inside the lock or barrel but like you said it's really priced cheaply.Que sera Que sera.
Tom Patton :m2c:

 

[weirdjack]

Mike, I'm with you on this one.It looks really clunky in the wrist and comb.I think that with the removal of a bunch of wood both there and especially from under the lock and sideplate panels as well as the forestock,it would look a lot better.

But Tom....you thought; "It's still a neat looking gun" back on January 26th :winking:
Although, you did say, "but I still don't like the finish and the probable thickness of the wood especially on the forestock.".....
. Some of us simply cannot afford more expensive arms. Yes, I know some folks have a hard time believing we can't all drop a couple of grand on a new flintlock, but it's true...damn kids and their college needs And while I have built a number of guns from kits and/or parts in years past, I just don't have the time for it these days. And yep, there are some dandy parts sets and kits out there too! Thanks for the comments. I'm still really hoping that one of the many people (judging by it's sales) who own and shoot one of these might respond with some firsthand knowledge of it.
Jack

 

[Runner]

There is a man in outside Springfield Mo. that builds big bore air guns. They are much more complicated and harder to build than any muzzleloader and the materials cost more also. He does the entire job from start to finish. He gets less for one than most of the parts assemblers get for even an in the white gun of any quality at all. If he ever starts making muzzleloaders he will run half of the builders out there out of business at reasonable prices. There are reasons the people are buying every one of those guns that makes it here.

 

[Okwaho]

Jack,I guess I hadn't compared this gun with the one in Battle Weapons as closely as I should have and hadn't compared it with an old gun that I have from about the same period.I still think there's too much wood left on this gun but then that seems to be common with virtually all of these imported guns not mention guns made here. Earl Lanning once told me that the two most common errors made by contemporary makers{mostly Ky's}were leaving too much wood and not knowing when to stop.I have an English 1740's fowler made by Chris Gilgun that has a 41 in. barrel in .62 cal. and weighs 7 1/2 lbs. My daughter in law covets that gun and It might interest you to know thatI Emailed Middlesex as to whether this gun could be had in the white.Depending on what I hear from people like you as to how the gun functions mechanically we might get her one and really rework[url] it.In[/url] all honesty I would remove the finish,a bunch of wood and probably shorten the barrel somewhat and then put an old type finish on the stock.I don't know how much taper the barrel has so the shortening idea would depend on the taper.A lot would depend on the lock and barrel also.Like Mike,I don't see how they can sell it so cheaply. The only thing that would scare me about shooting it would be the barrel but I think that's true of just about all these Middle East imports.I do think it's a neat gun but I already have two early smoothbores and don't need another.I do agree with everything you said on the cost of handmade {either wholly or from a kit} appropriate early guns.It seems that many correct guns are either imported like this one or handmade by quality builders with the prices being low or substantially higher.Maybe guns like these imports and homegrown builders like ERA or TVM are the answer.Your point is well taken,I just don't know all the answers.
Tom Patton :m2c:

 

[Mike Brooks]

There is a man in outside Springfield Mo. that builds big bore air guns. They are much more complicated and harder to build than any muzzleloader and the materials cost more also. He does the entire job from start to finish. He gets less for one than most of the parts assemblers get for even an in the white gun of any quality at all. If he ever starts making muzzleloaders he will run half of the builders out there out of business at reasonable prices. There are reasons the people are buying every one of those guns that makes it here.

My goal is to one day make as much per hour as the guy that fixes your toilet.

 

[Runner]

I do too!

 

[thomas]

Mike,

Wouldn't we all like that! I feel for you, in that I know how it feels to not be supported by the citizen's
of the U.S. in your labor. It's a fact now that we live in a world economy & it will not change, we have to change to stay competitive, if you don't you won't survive!

I've learned it doesn't do any good being bitter or talking bad about people on the enternet, learn what you need to do & then do it & laugh all the way to the bank. "March or Die", btw I have one of your guns, didn't buy it new, but is a well made & good shooting gun! :winking:

Thomas

 

[Runner]

I am a lapidary artist. If I cut a pattern that sells, someone takes them overseas, cuts a few thousand with slave labor, brings them back, and they they sell them on the shopping club network for less than the rough stone cost me. I only cut for those that know the score and the costs.

 

[thomas]

Runner,

That's my very point! Your an artist & have to find your own client's [that will pay your price] other wise your out in the cold. No one owe's us a liveing & we each need to find our own niche & not expect others to support us just because "we like what we do". In other words, if you can't make a buck doing what your doing, do something else that you can make a living at!

Thomas

 

[rschissler]

if you can't make a buck doing what your doing, do something else that you can make a living at!

Thomas

That's so simplistic. It's like slave or near slave labor, foreign government subsudies of certain industries, foreign plants that conterfeit name brand goods, and foreign plants that pirate software/movie/music media, is just part of that globalization we have learn to accept.

 

[thomas]

No, that is what you say! What I say is I'm not going to fight another war, because you can't learn your lesson's & the one I was addressing, can't stop crying like a baby!

Thomas

 

[Mike Brooks]

Whoa there fellas! Let me clarify my position.
My customers are not the ones that are buying these Pakistani guns, I realize I'm not competing with the pakistanis for my market. The guys that buy my stuff are looking for a quality piece that looks right and shoots right, quality is a priority in this case. Folks that are buying the Paki guns have the cheapest gun they can find as their top priority, and are willing to sacrifice quality and authenticity to save some bucks.
There is no way I want to get into providing the cheapest gun on the market, that isn't why I build guns. I understand that some can't buy guns from me because my prices are too high, that's fine, there are many things I covet that I can't afford too, I completly understand.
My main problem is the "global economy" thing in general. I don't think any one in America should have to work for a third world country wage just because the Paki's will. I'm not a NAFTA sort of guy, I believe the "global economy" we are participating in is bad for the people in this country. It's driving manufacturing jobs right out of this country. These Paki guns are just another example of "global economy" , only this time it's right here in our hobby.
I'm not worried about these cheap guns hurting my market, but it's got to be hard on TVM and early rustic arms and the like as this hits them dead between the eyes and really gives them a run for their money. I don't know how they are going to compete with people who make $1 an hour... :shake:
If this keeps up, the only choice for cheap guns will be from overseas, as Americans can't make ends meet for less than minimum wage.
Besides those very same Pakis that are building these cheap guns would probably like nothing better than to see all of us capitalist American infidels dead anyway.... :blah:
And that's the way I see it! :haha:

 

[thomas]

Post deleted by Musketman

 

[lockjaw]

...I handled one of these at fort #4 last month. there is no way this gun can be confused with a quality firearm...no way.

 

[Mike Brooks]

No, it isn't a case of "Whoa there fellas"!

I wrote about a dozen different things & just backspaced them all out, as in the end they make no differents, I guess I just think your full of s--t!
Thomas

Well Thanks! Your opinion makes a large difference in my life! :hatsoff:

 

[rich pierce]

No, it isn't a case of "Whoa there fellas"!

I wrote about a dozen different things & just backspaced them all out, as in the end they make no differents, I guess I just think your full of s--t!

Thomas

What a fine discussion this is and how encouraging it must be for those new to the sport, eh?

Let's try to summarize:
The guns in question seem to work and from a distance, depending on the eye of the observer, appear more or less period correct in shape and form if not finish. Safety, accuracy, and reliability are not well described yet. Price is astoundingly cheap and therefore attractive to some. Others prefer guns made with closer attention to historically accurate shaping, fit and finish and known quality of parts and are willing to pay for that. The impact of inexpensive imports on the marketplace generates heated discussions, but most of us find, "Made in China" or "Made in India" on many of our ordinary possessions. Whether we choose those less expensive products for our most prized possessions seems to be the question of the day. Perhaps it's a bit ironic that folks trying to emulate our ancestors and founders of our nation are choosing arms made in lands that were actively sought by explorers seeking a direct route to "The Indies" or China.

This post also failed to add anything substantial to the discussion of the gun in question, and if it's deleted, no loss.

 

[weirdjack]

This post also failed to add anything substantial to the discussion of the gun in question, and if it's deleted, no loss.

I've already asked musketman to delete this thread.
I am really sorry now that I posted it in the first place. I will try to get answers to these questions elsewhere I suppose.
I find it amazing that no one who responded actually owns one, nor has fired one. Only one respondent has even held one in his own hands. There have to be a lot of these guns out there being used if there is a constant two-month wait list.
To those who at least had some useful comments in general, thanks!
Jack