Loyalist arms and the 1768 Charleville musket review

[tiger13]

When I bought my replacement from Middlesex,the first musket having been stolen, I had already had a custom mould made up to fit my bore size. (These muskets do come through with varying bore sizes) so it is always best to wait before you buy any ball, mould wads and such until you get the gun in hand, they should send you the bore size when you receive it, and then you can double check it. I had asked Pete if he could match the bore size, or come as close to it as possible as he could. Since I had to wait a few weeks for a new batch to come in, he went through the new batch of muskets and came up with one that was within a couple thousands of the original one I had, so I could still use my Jeff Tanner mould. Great Customer service. But just a heads up for anyone considering an Indian musket, that what they say MAY be supposed to be .69 or .75 may not be. WAIT until it is in your hands to measure,or see what they tell you it measures out at, then order balls, moulds wads.

 

[Matt85]

yea i got lucky in that i have a Jeff Tanner mold for a .685 ball. i just happen to have it left over from trying to get my armisport 1842 to shoot correctly (never was able too). the wads and cards ive got are also left over from the armisport project so i didnt really take a loss on those either.

i was expecting to have the bore size not be correct but .712 caught me off gaurd. im pretty sure i can use 12 gauge wads and cards so i think it will turn out fine. ill pick some up from trackofthewolf and give em a shot. if i can get any kind of decent pattern with em i might consider trying for a turkey this year.

edit: i take that back, looks like the 12g wads/cards are track will be too big. looks like im going with 13g

-matt

 

[Ike Godsey]

matt:

maybe that helps?

http://flintlockandsteel.co.uk/calculator.htm

thank you for the image you've sent me. looks like you got a pretty lock

ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

seams like you got a nice lock there.

here is, just to compare, the lock from my india 1728 french musket. i had to put a lot of work in it.

1) i reworked the inside. smoothed some rough edges.

2) i added a bridle for the frizzen, to make it look more a 1728 than a 1754.

3) i bend the frizzen to follow the dorp of the hammer.

so compared to all the work i had to put in my lock, yours look pretty good

ike

 

[Matt85]

i tested the frizzen to flint contact by slowly lowering the cock with a flint in it. the flint makes contact at 7/8 of the way up the frizzen and remains in contact for almost the entire frizzen. this lock shouldnt ever have trouble sparking unless i burn threw the hardened surface of the frizzen or the flint gets dull of course. the gap between the flint and frizzen at half cock is around 3/16 of an inch.

this is my first flintlock so im glad the lock doesnt look like it will cause any problems. its also my first smoothbore so this will be a learning experience all around.

i will be going to to the woods to play with it tommorow. i will provide another update tommorow night.

-Matt

 

[okawbow]

I noticed the same difference in bore diameter that you did, on my 1728 French musket. It is tighter in the muzzle end than it is at the breach. I don't have a problem with this, and I think it actually is a good thing. I haven't had a patch come off the jag, so the difference is only a few thousands. With a clean barrel and a lubed patch, my gun groups very well at 50 yards,(6"from a rest) so the difference in the bore doesn't seem to affect accuracy.

 

[Matt85]

6" at 50 yards would make me happy, heck thats good enough for a close range deer! how does yer 1728 do with shot (both bird and buck)?

cant wait for tommorow, im still at work now.

-matt

 

[Matt85]

well i was just prepping the musket for tommorow and decided to test that open 8" spot at the breech. so i took a ball (.685) and the tightest patch setup i could get (a .015 and a .010). this took a huge effort to get down the barrel but then to my dismay when it got to the open spot it practically fell in. so i threaded my ball puller into the ball and tried to pull it. the first 8" were cake but it really got stuck after that. so i push the ball back down and tilted the gun down to hook the rod to a device i made for pulling balls (it just grabs the rod so i can pull on the gun). to my horror the rod slipped out when i tilted the gun and out came the ball without the patches! :shocked2: :td:

so its clear that even with the tightest fitted patches the gap at the breech is not tight enough to keep the ball in place.

i hate posting this kinda stuff but i promised a fair review. this gun might be ok to shoot with paper cartridges but its most likely useless with patched round ball. in order to safely shoot this gun i will need something to keep the ball from moving off the charge, since the gap is so big it will need to be something that expands to the space.

im currently trying to decide if its worth taking it out to the woods to shoot. if i take it out and shoot it loyalist arms may not take it back if i have real issues.

-matt

 

[pargent]

You could try loading the ball withthe tightest patch possible them a paper or cloth wad on top of the ball.

 

[Matt85]

i hate to make three posts in a row, but ive been doing some thinking and testing.

i decided to test the gun by dropping a ball (.685) down the tube. then taking a piece of paper towel and wading it up then pushing that down the tube ontop of the ball to imitate a paper cartridge. after tamping it down pretty good with the rod i preceded to test the gun by turning it muzzle down and shaking it. i even went as far as to thrust the gun towards the ground with full strength then pull back before hitting the ground. after trying as hard as i could to shake the load loose i checked with the rod again... nothing moved.

so in conclusion, while this musket may be potentially unsafe with a patched ball it should be fine with a paper cartridges as long as there is sufficient paper.

i suppose these guns werent ment for a patched ball any way. so being forced to shoot the musket in a PC/HC fashion isnt so bad.

-matt

 

[pargent]

Number 2 idea ,do you think it is possible to hone the bore out to be the same size all the way through, it depends on how big the difference feels to you.( using a brake cyc. hone on a rod dowel powered by a slow running drill )

 

[pargent]

Sounds bodgy but more hitec then was available hcpc

 

[yakimaman]

Matt, have you called Loyalist Arms yet? Box it up and get your money back.

 

[Birdwatcher]

i suppose these guns werent ment for a patched ball any way. so being forced to shoot the musket in a PC/HC fashion isnt so bad.

AAAK!

You are "settling", don't settle, you wouldn't walk out of a store with this piece so dont accept it as-is either. This wasn't a gift, or a bargain, you bought it, full retail price.

Besides the safety issue (what if the NEXT owner uses a patched ball) you have no way of knowing how this will affect accuracy. I don't either, but the bore as-is sure as heck ain't gonna help.

Contact the vendor, send it back. Be patient, just set your schedule for having a working musket back a month is all.

Things happen.

Birdwatcher

 

[okawbow]

If you are wanting enough accuracy for deer hunting; I think you might want to send the gun back for a refund. I just recently bought my musket from Veteran Arms in Ga. The barrel is marked the same as yours, so it was made by the same outfit. It would be a reasonable request for the seller to make sure the bore was close enough to the same diameter to use a patched ball. I would also want them to inspect the lock to be sure it functioned properly and the hammer closed flat to the pan.

The musket you received may be good enough for re-enactment work, but not for hunting with a patched ball.

 

[russecv58]

i wonder if its just a poorly machined barrel or possibly swollen from the proofing load they used. :hmm:

 

[Matt85]

first, as to "settling" if i send the gun back it will cost me MORE money. Loyalist Arms does not refund shipping. so this would tack on another $60 to the already waaay overpriced gun and i would lose the $80 i paid for it already. so sending it back for a refund will cost me $140 and land me with nothing. this is the absolute last option.

loyalist arms is not open on weekends, ill talk to them on monday.

im not looking to use this as a deer gun. that was more of an after thought in the event i was able to get useable accuracy out of it. i intend to get a semi-custom or even custom fowling piece some time down the road for smoothbore deer and small game.

i bought this thing to have fun with it. if im restricted to cartridges... thats mainly what i intended to use it for any way. i really didnt wanna post that PRB wont work, but i promised a thorough and fair review.

-matt

 

[okawbow]

As someone else said; you could hone and lap the barrel to get it more consistent. I ran a jag and patch loaded with valve grinding compound about 100 strokes over a slight tight spot just to even out the bore a little.

The other thing you might try, is a .662 ball with a thick patch.

It is lots of fun to use the musket for deer. I took mine out Friday and shot a nice doe at 40 yards. That was with a ball and thick patch, heart shot. The picture is on my 1728 French musket thread. My gun shoots .648 balls in paper cartridges fairly well, but they hit lower than the tighter patched .662 ball.

You'll have a ball shooting the gun, and maybe the cartridge load will shoot great.

 

[Matt85]

ok againts the suggestions of many here and against my better judgement i went out shooting today. its been 6 weeks since ive set off some black powder and the withdrawls were killing me!

i first tried my local range but the second they saw the musket they turned me away. so i drove about 90 min to get out into the sticks. heres a range report:

ball: hand cast .685 from a J. Tanner mold.
patch: none
over shot wad: i took an old target that was full of holes and ripped pieces off to put over the ball. this worked very well but was time consuming compared to a paper cartridge.
powder: 80 grains of schuetzen 2F
prime: tried both schuetzen 3F and 2F, 2F worked well enough.
flint: black english from trackofthewolf and a texas chert from Loyalist arms.

first i should say that accuracy was not a goal for today. even if it was the fog had set in something fierce and visibility was about 10 yards tops.

my first two shots were dismal failures, the sparks were not setting off the powder. it took 6 pulls to get the gun to go off for each shot. so i ditched the black englist flint (which onley had about 15 uses) and threw in a texas chert flint. after putting in the new flint the gun ran like a swiss watch! ignition was fast and the lock didnt seem to be picky on how much prime was in the pan(sometimes i put alot, others almost none).

with the texas chert flint i fired 38 shots without a single hickup. the crazy part is i fired all 40 shots without swabbing the bore or cleaning the pan! im sure the gun would have kept on working, but i onley brought 40 balls. by the time i was outa balls the guns breech was too hot to touch and the gun was super filthy.

overall it turned out to be a good day. made lotsa smoke and even got to show some people i met out in the woods how a flintlock works.

i have some pictures of the gun after firing 40 shots without being cleaned if any one is interested. photobucket has never worked for me so i will need to email em too ya.

-matt

 

[buzz]

matt85 I shoot my pedisoli bess all day long and i never had to swab and brush the pan
I think lots over kill that (just my opinion)
i shoot paper patch or bare ball and shot
well i can say i took me few times out to get the gun sighted in to were i could hit anything with it
glad you got out and made some smoke
as fare as indian made guns they are what they are jsut make your better and enjoy bit would be my advice