leather on the flint?

[wattlebuster]

Ive used lead an leather over the yrs like both but seems like leather is easy to work with. I put rough side gripping flint but cant tell u why cause i dont know myself

 

[Bill Bryan]

I've used leather and lead. My opinion, but I'd flatten a lead ball with a hammer; trim with scissors; and us that instead of leather. I think I get better spark. Bill

 

[Legionair]

I always use a piece of thick buckskin, rough side in (out of habit??).

I read the arguments for and against, some made sense some didn't.

At the risk of starting another technical or HC argument, (acorn finials, anyone? :shocked2: ), it seemes to me that a lead wrap would (being much denser than leather) transmit much more shock to the flint upon impact with the frizzen. Leather would cushion the impact without necessarily being "looser) in its grip.

Either way... leather works good for me. :grin:

Just an opinion
Legion

 

[hanshi]

I never saw any difference between lead and leather. So I use leather and it works fine. Lead may be more of a military thing.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You won't SEE any difference between lead wraps and leather wraps, unless you test the locks in a darkened room, AFTER allowing your pupils to dilate sufficiently to let you see ALL the sparks created by the flint striking the face of the frizzen. If you use the same flint, wrapped in leather, and lead, alternately, you will find that the sparks thrown from a Hardened frizzen will be greater in number, and hotter( whiter in color) using Lead as the wrap, than when you leather as a wrap.

I didn't believe it either, based on what I "saw" in daylight. :shocked2: :shocked2: :hmm: :v

MY late friend, Don Latter forced me into sitting his dark work room for about 15 minutes before he began testing a lock mounted in his bench vise- first with a leather wrap; then with a lead wrap, and then again with the leather wrap. He let me then tighten the cock screw any way I wanted to with both wraps, and I got the same results when I tightened the cock screw as tight as possible on both wraps. :shocked2: :idunno: :surrender: :thumbsup:

I had no idea that allowing the pupils to open up would allow me to see so much more color and quantities of sparks that I could not see in daylight at the range.

I then remembered that blacksmiths keep their forge areas dark so they can better see colors as they heat steel. That day in Don's Shop was the first time I really understood why blacksmiths were doing that! :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[ebiggs1]

Man I whole heartily, respectfully disagree. I took five different brands of locks into my photographic darkroom and I could tell no significant difference. I snapped them a lot, too. Sometimes one lock with lead or leather would seem to spark better than another time no. Like Pletch says there are just so many variances in flint, positioning, and sharpness and on and on, I don’t think you can say that lead sparks better definitely.
Plus the fact it’s not as easy to use, makes for a good case for leather.

 

[hanshi]

Would lead wraps, though better sparkers, be harder on flints? When I experimented years ago I did not experiment to destruction with either the lead or the leather. :idunno:

 

[paulvallandigham]

If I recall correctly, you are one of the members who loves T/C locks. You have the old ones with the old frizzens. These are a bit soft, and don't throw white hot sparks, as a harder frizzen does.

YOU WON'T see any difference in the color or quantity of sparks thrown in these guns with those frizzens. I learned of this only after a few members acquired the new locks or lock parts, that have a different Cock, and a new frizzen that is made from harder steels. They have mentioned how much better sparks they get from the new locks. Personally, I have not had the opportunity to try one of the new T/C locks. However, I trust the statements of these other members here that they are reporting facts accurately.
Sorry you are so displeased, but that happens some time. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

. . . I took five different brands of locks into my photographic darkroom and I could tell no significant difference. . . Like Pletch says there are just so many variances in flint, positioning, and sharpness and on and on, I don’t think you can say that lead sparks better definitely.. . . .

Hi Biggs,
If you have a darkroom I'd suggest using a camera. I tend to be skeptical about any evidence I can't confirm, and took my own photos as this topic continues to surface. So many times we have evidence given here based on observation by human eye or ear. I don't trust my own senses let alone anyone else's. I want to see the numbers.

Example: Recently I was able to test a new ML product. The accompanying statement was, "It seemed fast to me." When timed, it was more than 3 times slower than the product I was using at the time.

Example: Someone says, "My flinter is as fast as a percussion." I want to ask, "How did you time it? Describe your trials."

OK off my rant. No offense meant to anyone.
Regards,
Pletch

 

[ebiggs1]

You have hit on the crux of the problem. Most people go strictly on how it feels or how it seems. Some people have predetermined ideas of which is better, than it most likely will be. But most of all people fail to take into account the variables of their experiment. The out come may have been the variable. When dealing with flints there are considerable “variables”.

 

[ebiggs1]

My friend you must have been dozing when you read this sentence,

I took five different brands of locks into my photographic darkroom and I could tell no significant difference.

I didn’t say there was no difference in the locks. Only that the difference in lead vs. leather was either small or inconsistent but generally no better. Lead being more trouble to use, I am going to choose leather. Which is what everyone should decide for themselves but my tests don’t substantiate, that lead is better than leather.

BTW, there was no older TC lock there.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Idid miss that comment. Lets just agree to disagree. Unless I know what the conditions are when you tested my thesis, I can't know if you were doing it the way I describe.

I can assure you that I Was as much a Skeptic about this difference as YOU ARE. It was my late friend who called me to his house, then took me into his workroom and turned off the lights, and MADE me stand there in the dark to wait for my eyes to adjust to the absence of light( not total, as there was a hairline crack under the door.) I felt as uncomfortable doing that as any of us would. But, I did it. I still did not expect to see what I saw. Then, being a skeptic, I figured it was just HIS LOCK that did this. So, I went home, took my flintlock from my gun, mounted it in the vise in my garage workshop, closed the doors, and turned out the lights. I had both a strip of leather, and a lead wrap that fit the new flint I employed. I was Convinced, from what I had not seen in daylight, That I was going to prove Don Wrong! AHA!!! Gotcha! :shocked2: :grin:

I failed.

So, please, keep an open mind on this issue. :hmm: :thumbsup:

There are other reasons to use a lead wrap around your flint besides hotter, and more sparks.

Lead is able to mold itself to the subtle, smooth curves in the surfaces of a knapped flint.

Lead does NOT GIVE when the flint strikes the frizzen. Leather does, and that rebounding puts chatter marks on the frizzen. Those chatter marks accumulate and retard the scraping action of the flint down the face of the frizzen. In turn, that knocks off more of the edge of the flint, and reduces flint life. With a flint mounted so that the Angle of Impact of the edge to the face of the frizzen is 60 degrees, and striking the frizzen about 2/3s of the distance up from the heel, that flint will not bounce back when lead wraps are used.

The lead weight gives more mass to the end of the cock as it comes over the top of the arc, and gravity begins to assist the cock in falling down towards the face of the frizzen. That very small bit of increase in velocity makes for a better bite into the steel to scrape off sparks, using less mainspring tension. That saves mainsprings, and lessens the rattle and tickle of your sights while you wait for the ball to leave the muzzle.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me on these matters. Different lock designs created different possibilities and limit others. Some of the steels used in some of the locks still being made are less than optimum.

All this is possible in a well-tuned, and correctly designed flintlock. They actually did exist back in the 18th century. We now have some American-made locks that are of that high quality coming from the manufacturer.

 

[Zonie]

Dam I get tired of the old Leather vs Lead flint wrap debates.

They always go no where with no one convincing the other side that one is better than the other.

I suggest to all of you who are standing on the sidelines, use what is working for you. If you want to try the other material by all means do so. You may find something that is working better than what your using now, or not.

In the meantime, did you hear the one about the fly who walked into the bar.....? :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree. Use what works for you.

I only added my comments because of the other advantages I see to using lead. Most shooters would not appreciate the subtle differences of a finely tuned flintlock. Oh, they would notice how much smoother, and "faster", and reliably it fires, but that does not mean they would understand, or care to bother to understand how it gets that way. I am in NO way trying to convince anyone to use lead for a flint wrap. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[MSW]

i don't think the lead broke your flint. sometimes, flints just break. sometimes, primers just don't go off. sometimes, the Red Sox beat the Yankees :stir:

skepticism is the essential basis of intellect (that sounds really profound, like it's some quote from some famous dude or somesuch, but really, i just made it up).

i think it boils down to the utility of one over the other, rather than a technical advantage: if lead was vastly superior, all we'd see on antique guns would be lead, but we see both- in other words, we're just continuing a discussion that's been going on for hundreds of years.

lead works for me, but that doesn't guarantee that it will work for you, nor does it infer that you're obligated to throw out the leather and go to lead: Zonie's right- use what gives you the best result, and don't get too upset about what the other guy (or gal) is doing.

make good smoke!

 

[ebiggs1]

Everyone,

I guess Zonie and Mr. vallandigham was both dozing when this sustenance was read,
“”¦everyone should decide for themselves but my tests don’t substantiate, that lead is better than leather.”

And possibly this one, “”¦there are just so many variances in flint, positioning, and sharpness and on and on, I don’t think you can say that lead sparks better definitely.

But I will say that flat, parallel flint surfaces work better than whatever wrap you choose. Now I will state that is a fact and you would have a difficult time convincing me otherwise.

” They always go no where with no one convincing the other side that one is better than the other."
This is true and it shows neither has the advantage that some claim. So in my case I choose to use the easier one, which is leather.

And, Zonie this is a public debate forum and there are people that all this is new to. Do you really want them to just use the “search” feature and just read old posts or get involved in an interactive forum that we have available. This library of knowledge that Mr. vallandigham, MSW, Pletch and you and all the others and hopefully me at some point is invaluable. There is no place on the net like this one.

 

[ebiggs1]

Mr. vallandigham,
If I could figure out how to get my bench vise in the darkroom aka storage room, who uses a darkroom anymore, I have the equipment and talent to take some very good photos.
Like Pletch and I said previously there are just so many variables when working with flintlocks, it will be difficult to say this or that was the defining change that made the lock better.
My new favorite statement, “ Flintlocks are simple tools and very forgiving.”

 

[BEP]

You have hit on the crux of the problem. Most people go strictly on how it feels or how it seems. Some people have predetermined ideas of which is better, than it most likely will be. But most of all people fail to take into account the variables of their experiment. The out come may have been the variable. When dealing with flints there are considerable “variables”.

Bingo! Someone give the gent a cigar! If it's not measureable and not repeatable then we may have our own firmly-held opinions but that's about as far as that goes. So use what you wish and be happy.

 

[Legionair]

paulvallandigham

"The lead weight gives more mass to the end of the cock as it comes over the top of the arc, and gravity begins to assist the cock in falling down towards the face of the frizzen. That very small bit of increase in velocity makes for a better bite into the steel to scrape off sparks, using less mainspring tension."

Not to get off topic, but I have to ask. Gravity assist on the heavier cock? So... if you trip the lock upside-down, gravity should slow the cock against the force of the mainspring?

I'm thinking that the mainspring must generate many "G's" in order to take the cock from standstill and acellerate it to top speed in hundredths of a second. I'm wondering if you mean the added inertia generated by a heavier cock resists slowing on contact with the frizzen.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, and don't play one on tv... :wink: Just really curious....

Legion

 

[MSW]

don't know... only tried a flintlock upside down one time, and that was just to see if it would work... just came out of the field (while i was stationed at Ft. Bragg) and my wife was still at work, and the kids weren't born yet, and yes, i admit i'd had a few beers, and it occurred to me that someone had said that flintlocks were so slow that the powder would fall out and the thing wouldn't fire if it were upside down, so i loaded a blank - just a bunch of wadding behind a .38 special case full of powder) and primed it and


KA BOOM!!


went back inside and hoped like hell the MPs weren't on their way to my door, but they never came.

back 'on point' to Legion's querry:

EEEEWW- calculus would be required to solve this one, and i firmly believe that the use of calculus is a de facto violation of the Geneva Hague protocols.

(that particular flint, by the way, was wrapped in leather, but that was before i was even aware that there was anything else which would serve the function)

make good smoke!