Leather lost it's strength??

[Scota@4570]

Two years ago I made a bag out out of 5oz veggie tan. I used vinegar iron stain followed by neat's foot oil. The straps are now easily torn with my fingers. The bag was stored indoors.

The unused parent leather stock is still strong.

Any idea what went wrong? Anything I can do the strengthen the bag itself? I hate to throw it away never having used it .

 

[bang]

Only thing I can think is the stain might not have been long term friendly.
Not much to do if the material has lost its strength. If bag is good make new strap

 

[andy52]

Only thing I can think is the stain might not have been long term friendly.
Not much to do if the material has lost its strength. If bag is good make new strap

This would be my thinking also, I'm not positive how the stain is made but an acid-type product would not be good for leather.

 

[Scota@4570]

https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/73637-my-guide-to-the-best-vinegaroon-youve-ever-made/

 

[SDSmlf]

Are you sure it is veggie tanned leather?

 

[hawkeye2]

Did you completely neutralize (baking soda/water mix) the stained leather as a final step before oiling?

 

[Brokennock]

Sew a cotton or linen fabric backing to the strap.
Like so,

 

[Scota@4570]

Here is a link to the original pouch:
Vinnergar-iron Stain Post 14.

I did not neutralize it with baking soda, the advice was not to do so. I am certain it is veggie tanned leather. I can make a new strap, but only if the body of it is still strong. I have not had the guts to try and tear it. I expect it to be rotten too though.

 

[oldwood]

A friend made me a shot pouch back in the 1970's as a gift., I asked what he dressed the pouch with , he said Neats foot oil. . Back then , I knew little about leather care except for my Irish Setter leather boots. One thing I would never put on my best boots would be neats foot oil. It stinks , and does something to the quality of the leather over time. Wouldn't put vinegar on anything but salad. After years of making leather pouches , etc. , leather dyes are very reliable and color fast , followed by any leather dressing , but not neatsfoot oil. ............oldwood

 

[Artificer]

Here is a link to the original pouch:
Vinnergar-iron Stain Post 14.

I did not neutralize it with baking soda, the advice was not to do so. I am certain it is veggie tanned leather. I can make a new strap, but only if the body of it is still strong. I have not had the guts to try and tear it. I expect it to be rotten too though.

Did you apply the Vinegaroon to both sides of the leather, I.E. both the smooth and rough sides?

Gus

 

[necchi]

The straps are now easily torn with my fingers.

Don't over think it.
Leather has grain. Cut with it for straps. It would have shown only if the hide was wet and pulled. A strap cut the wrong way on the belly side of a veg tan half side will "separate" with time.
There isn't a fix for the strap. It's a simple lesson earned with experience.
Replace or as suggested, re-enforce the strap.

 

[Notchy Bob]

This got my attention.

Tannin is an acid and is in the bark used to make "vegetable tanned" leather. It works great. However, people have experimented with other acids for tanning or “tawing” animal skins over the centuries. I've seen recipes using oxalic acid and others with sulphuric acid. Leathers tanned with these tend to weaken and eventually disintegrate over time. Why doesn't tannin do that? I don't know. My take on it is that some acids are really bad for the leather and some are not.

I'm planning to make a new pouch, and was thinking of using vinegaroon as a reagent to color the leather. I put a post about this on another forum and got some really good responses. However, I asked about neutralizing the acid after the desired color was achieved and not much was said. Interestingly, one very well known and highly respected professional took the trouble to contact me by private message to recommend not using vinegaroon. He specifically named another pro who uses it, whose pouches tend to tear apart after a few years.

Maybe the type of vinegar has something to do with the long term strength of the leather. In any event, I have colored a test piece with homemade vinegaroon but will probably use Fiebing's Pro Dye on the pouch.

Notchy Bob

 

[Brokennock]

Vinegroon has a long history.
Many here and on other similar forums have used it successfully.
Maybe something else is wrong?
Cut the wrong way in relation to the grain of the leather as has been mentioned?
Acid left too long or not neutralized?

 

[Rifleman1776]

Some leathers will last almost indefinitely if treated properly. But, when leather does start to break down there is no saving it. Build new.

 

[smo]

The top sheath was dyed with vinegaroon mixture.. It lasted 3-4 years before it ripped as you described….
The new sheath I did was dyed with Fiberlings…

I suspected the first one wasn’t neutralized enough….

 

[Scota@4570]

I got my answer. Vinergroon rots leather.

I also made a pouch for a friend. That pouch has a body made the same as mine. The flap incorporates the brand from one of his deceased sister's cow's hides. It is very sentimental to him. AWKWARD!!

 

[barracudadave67]

Feibings has a lot of nice leather die colours. You can get them in an alcohol base, an oil base, or water based. I have used them all with great sucsess.
I believe Feibings makes most, if not all of Tandy leathers dies, also.

Dave

 

[Bighorserider]

I've had 2 undyed pouch straps fail like that. One fairly thick veg tan and the other kind of a suede. Both were over 30 years old and both pouches made of the same leather were fine. Only the straps failed.

 

[Greenjoytj]

The acid weaken the leather for sure.
I had some leather lace I applied Ballistol to, about a year later I gave the lace a tug and it broke like over cook spaghetti pasta. Later I discovered Ballistol is mildly acidic.

 

[Artificer]

I got my answer. Vinergroon rots leather.

Vinegarroon CAN rot leather if used incorrectly, BUT there are still intact 18th century examples of what British Ordnance called "Blackened Leather" that were dyed with Vinegarroon and they considered "Blackened Leather" as "cheap leather goods" compared to Buff Leather.

This is why I asked if the Vinegarroon was applied to BOTH sides of the leather, I.E. the smooth and rough sides, because that is NOT the correct way to do it.

The 18th century British specifications called for Vinegarroon to have ONLY been applied to the smooth side of the leather and the rough side NOT dyed. They knew if you applied it to the rough side, it would interfere with the necessary occasional working oil into the rough side of the leather to keep the fibers from breaking down and "rotting."

I hope Capt. Jas. will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Eric Myall who was the Master of the Saddlers Shop at Colonial Williamsburg for many years, always WET the leather BEFORE applying Vinegarroon. If I'm correct, that helped ensure the Vinegarroon did not soak through into the middle of the leather. Eric also applied the Vinegarroon ONLY to the smooth side of the leather, per original 18th century techniques. After getting the desired dying results, Eric once again immersed leather into water and then worked oil into the rough side of the leather, because wet leather won't absorb TOO much oil. Off the top of my head, I don't remember if Eric used baking soda to neutralize the Vinegarroon, but I think he did and that was also done before he worked oil into the rough side of the leather.

I had already made the mistake of dying both sides of the leather with Fiebings dye in the 1980's one time, when I was going against tried-and-true leather dying techniques and thought to "speed up my dyeing" by just immersing a strap in the dye. THAT didn't work out well either, so I NEVER immersed an entire piece of leather in dye after that.

I can relate a mistake I made in the late 1990's that "rotted the leather" on my 18th century Waist Belt in ONLY Two Years when I was using Fiebings USMC Black Leather Dye instead of Vinegarroon, because I was not familiar with using Vinegarroon. This was also MY fault, BTW.

I was doing "Black Watch" then and unlike Regular British Soldiers who were normally issued Buff Leather Straps and often Waist Belts by their Commanding Officers; Scottish Soldiers stuck to the Issued "Cheap Blackened Leather" Straps and Waist Belts. OK, so I applied the Fiebings to the smooth side of the leather and admit I did dye the edges, but not the rough back side of the leather. Dyeing the edges didn't cause the problem, though.

I had read of period "Black Ball" that soldiers were issued to "dress" their blackened leather, but back then I didn't know how to make it. So, in an effort to keep the leather looking good, I used a modern dressing over the blackened smooth side of the leather. So far, so good. Had I stopped there, I would have been good.

THEN I got to thinking about my nice White Waist Coat we wore the Waist Belts over. I was concerned about oil from the Waist Belt staining my Waist
Coat. Now, THIS is where I screwed up! I decided to apply a layer of "Top Finish" over the ROUGH side of the leather to keep it from staining my Waist Coat. DUMB MOVE ON MY PART!!! That Top Finish Coat kept the rough leather side from being able to absorb the necessary occasional "maintenance" coats of oil to the leather. THAT caused the leather to crack/split right through the bend area of the leather Waist Belt in only two years, so I NEVER made that mistake again!

BTW, I have since learned to moisten the rough side of leather once or twice a year when I apply the "maintenance" coats of oil to the rough side of my leather goods. This helps ensure I don't apply too much oil to it. Then I allow it to dry thoroughly and hand buff it with a terry cloth rag, so there is little chance of the oil "bleeding out" onto my period clothing.

Gus