Kibler side effect?

[smokepolehall]

I didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Both are inanimate objects and not worth getting upset about. Don't you know opinions differ from person to person? And that one man's experience might differ from another's? Should we refrain from posting what might not be pleasing to someone else? I said nothing derogatory about anyone. Sarcasm is seldom polite.

Lets see you said your Pedersorry works & is more accurate. That tells me you favor it over the Kibler rifle, your words & choice not mine. I am not upset in the least. I just told you how to rid yourself of the offending Colonial. My opinion differs from yours on the Pedersorry rifles. Your opinion is yours & mine is mine. I did not attack you personally . So many on here have jumped into my butt about this & that. So now now i voice my opinions too.

 

[SOLANCO]

You, or I, can get a rifle as good as a Kibler. But you will have to commission and pay a good custom builder. I have done it. Twice and I am exceedingly happy with both rifles. That said I am like a fish with a hook in its mouth. That hook looks just like a small caliber Kibler SMR.

 

[wiscoaster]

You, or I, can get a rifle as good as a Kibler. But you will have to commission and pay a good custom builder. I have done it. ...

Yes, you can get A Kibler built and finished, but it will cost you ....

 

[SOLANCO]

Yes, you can get A Kibler built and finished, but it will cost you ....

Would not be my first rodeo.
There are things which I do well, but few of them require mechanical aptitude or manual dexterity. Two left hands and ten thumbs. And old enough that I do know better.

 

[Garbear34]

Get the Woods Runner ,never wish you had cause you would !/Ed

Think I'll end up with both

 

[smoothshooter]

Pedersoli’s production of long guns in general has been down to a trickle since the Chinese air traveling businessmen brought their virus directly to Italy. The Wuhan, China-Italy air route was the main vector out of China to the rest of the world. It took a particularly heavy toll of Italian workers, and skilled, long time employees have been almost impossible to replace.

In my post above, I should have said the Wuhan to Italy was the ONLY air route vector out of China after the virus escaped or was intentionally released from the Wuhan lab. Even in-country travel from one province to another was banned and strictly enforced.
Seems the Chinese government wanted to spread the hurt around the world so their economy and military were not the only ones weakened and possible collapsed.

 

[duca]

Wow, I just finished reading this post
My head is spinning! I’ve been muzzleloading for 40 years and all I can say is that I’m glad I’m around to see Jim doing what he’s doing. I’ve built five Kibler kit’s and am amazed at the quality. I’m not going to try and read into this too much. I’m just going to enjoy the ride and have fun.

 

[Moleman]

Wow! This thread went in directions that I didn't imagine.
I had no intentions of starting such controversy and my apologies to Mr Kibler.
Since I started this, I'll throw my thoughts out there. For the most part everything I've read from Kibler owners has been more than positive,
After reading all of the positive comments ,I'd say that what Jim has accomplished should be recognized as a great accomplishment for those of us that love this hobby.
Not only does he offer HC quality American made products, he also provides jobs for Americans.
When you take on an employee, you take on the whole family as well, because that paycheck supports them all.
As it stands right now, we need all of the American made products and good paying American jobs we can muster, so my hat is off to Mr Kibler for the many hours, and money that have been invested in his product.
Not only has he invested in a business providing quality but he has invested in the future employment for others and their families.
Look as hard as you like but I don't think you'll ever find fault with that.

 

[sturmkatze]

Lets see you said your Pedersorry works & is more accurate. That tells me you favor it over the Kibler rifle, your words & choice not mine. I am not upset in the least. I just told you how to rid yourself of the offending Colonial. My opinion differs from yours on the Pedersorry rifles. Your opinion is yours & mine is mine. I did not attack you personally . So many on here have jumped into my butt about this & that. So now now i voice my opinions too.

People “jump in your butt” because you speak ignorantly. “Pedersorry” is offensive and ignorant. What will you say to guys with CVA, Traditions, Lyman and T/C?

 

[Kmcmichael]

Bill,

Why would I want to argue with someone who obviously doesn't really know what they are talking about? Why would you want to argue with me given my background. Arrogance? For Real? Who are you? One of thousands who use CNC to make MUZZLELOADING stocks? Are you ridiculous. Making a short stock is a breeze compared to a longrifle. If you think a Pedersoli even remotely compares to our products it just shows your lack of knowledge. You think they completely re-tooled since there video? I would bet it's all virtually the same. You must not know much about manufacuring to think they could make a product like ours with only the desire, you must not understand and appreciate how bad their products and processes are. All I can do is shake my head

Jim, we have had many conversations in the past. I have built at least one of each of your products for myself and others. I and many others defend your products on this forum vehemently.

I feel your time could be better spent working on a nice Kuntz or similar pistol design. I am getting older and wish to take up dueling, hopefully with some politicians.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

I have built two colonials, one SMR and one woodsrunner all were excellent kits and I think Jim's products are some of the best! In the past I have built many rifles from various suppliers, some with good results and others....not so good!

 

[Mike in FL]

Lets see you said your Pedersorry works & is more accurate. That tells me you favor it over the Kibler rifle, your words & choice not mine. I am not upset in the least. I just told you how to rid yourself of the offending Colonial. My opinion differs from yours on the Pedersorry rifles. Your opinion is yours & mine is mine. I did not attack you personally . So many on here have jumped into my butt about this & that. So now now i voice my opinions too.

No sir. I never said the Colonial was ""offending." I said the Pedersoli is more accurate. It is the !most accurate muzzleloader I ever shot. Actually truly amazing. And I certainly never said I preferred the Ped over the Colonial. You said that. I like the Kibler, all Kiblers, much more than the Ped or any other production gun, pinpoint accuracy not withstanding. Okay? It bothers me not that you don't like Pedersolis. Lots of people don't. There is room in the muzzleloader market for everyone to play. I say all that and wonder why I need to defend myself. So please back off. This stands as my last response to you on this issue. Have a calm and wonderful day. Very pretty here on the east coast of FL. 72 degrees and cloudless with the scent of new blossoms on the easy westerly breeze. If you were here and we were friends we could go to the range today and shoot whichever gun we want to use.

 

[Polecat_Tom]

In the past I have built many rifles from various suppliers, some with good results and others....not so good!

I can relate to your comment. If we are putting in requests to Jim, I hope when he makes his Hawkin rifle that he makes it with a flint or percussion option.

 

[Polecat_Tom]

.

Very pretty here on the east coast of FL. 72 degrees and cloudless with the scent of new blossoms on the easy westerly breeze. If you were here and we were friends we could go to the range today and shoot whichever gun we want to use.

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I would like to go shoot with you today. It is only 42 degrees, windy, and raining here in Oregon. No shooting for me here today...

 

[yellowhammer]

I struggle with this whole subject matter - i.e. you have no street cred and deserve denigration unless you get into what some hierarchical club decides is kosher. You know the guys with the gloves on, handling a gun carved up like a grandfather clock, surveying with moon eyes and slobbery mouth agape, carefully handling "my precious" softly to avoid putting a dent in a complex c scroll? Load it and shoot it - lordy mercy are you nuts?

Well I ain't one of them.

I bought and completed a .54 Woodsrunner and plan to keep it forever (well forever ain't long in my case). I like Jim's stuff. I like Jim. The kid's a go-getter. But the gun is not perfection personified. What is?

I use my firearms, and place accuracy at the top of my priorities. COL Townsend Whelen spoke it best: "Only accurate rifles are interesting." I have a safe stuffed full of unmentionables and bp ml's, both inlines and sidelocks, some mucho $$ valued. So here comes the rankle that will cause people in here to fall down on the floor and flop around with their tongues hanging out like fish just pulled out of a livewell: the most accurate ml I own, by a long shot, is an inexpensive little Traditions Shenandoah .50 I bought as a kit off of a kid in this forum. Until I come across something better, that is my go-to hunting weapon.

My 2c and that's prob inflated value. Don't flame me you're wasting your time.

 

[Snooterpup]

Returning to the subject of side effect:
1. Those who want and are willing to pay will always find a competent builder to build exactly what they want right down to the specific historical rifle or musket. 2. Jim Kibler cannot be all things to all people’s wants. Not possible!
3. His niche is a historically correct rifle with premium quality parts, reliable, carefully designed to allow those without the deep pocketed costs of a commissioned build.
4. Those who want a muzzleloader to seriously shoot or just to have fun have many choices and ways to do so.

Jim’s niche is secure but so are the other choices based on wants, needs, and available funds. Jim Kibler provides the unquestionable best choice in his niche.

Can a T/C, Tradition, CVA shoot accurately and reliably? Of course they can. Do they possess all of the items in #1 and #3 above? Of course not, even if only lacking in the proper historical sense.

I had a Pedersoli Hatfield copy, the darn thing was extremely accurate but the lock under performed. Does that make it a bad rifle? No, but I did not want to incur to cost to have that lock brought up to snuff.

It’s my opinion that one should get what they want and like what they’ve selected without others dumping on their choice. Choices are generally made based on disposable income and what you first purchase will probably not be your last purchase.

I have a Kibler and love it. Also a T/C Hawken and a Lyman GPR and love them too. A couple of flintlock pistol kits, two ASM and one Pietta revolver, love them all. Are there “better” guns? Absolutely! At my purchasing power?
Nope.

I regret that I’ve ever disparaged someone else’s choice. Probably have at some point, never again. We are all a part of the brotherhood of traditional side lock muzzleloaders and should try to be helpful and encouraging, not condescending.

Just one old buzzard’s thoughts.

Snoot

 

[smoothshooter]

Jim, we have had many conversations in the past. I have built at least one of each of your products for myself and others. I and many others defend your products on this forum vehemently.

I feel your time could be better spent working on a nice Kuntz or similar pistol design. I am getting older and wish to take up dueling, hopefully with some politicians.

Are you open to nominations as to which ones to start with?

 

[¡Señor.Casualidad!]

Bill,

Why would I want to argue with someone who obviously doesn't really know what they are talking about? Why would you want to argue with me given my background. Arrogance? For Real? Who are you? One of thousands who use CNC to make MUZZLELOADING stocks? Are you ridiculous. Making a short stock is a breeze compared to a longrifle. If you think a Pedersoli even remotely compares to our products it just shows your lack of knowledge. You think they completely re-tooled since there video? I would bet it's all virtually the same. You must not know much about manufacuring to think they could make a product like ours with only the desire, you must not understand and appreciate how bad their products and processes are. All I can do is shake my head.

Sorry for the paragraphs it seems all my thoughts come to me early in the morning! Ha!!

I'm not trying to restart an argument but I believe blackpowderbill was referring to companies using cnc manufacturing for stocks and components within the "FIREARMS" industry as a whole not specifically the MUZZLELOADING industry as in- kibler longrifles is literally one of hundreds of "FIREARMS" manufacturers utilizing cnc for their components from cheap bread and butter guns all the way to the creme of the crop from H&H and purdy!
I feel sometimes reading on this forum and talking to some individuals local to me the muzzleloading community can really have a pinky finger attitude and alienate itself from the firearms industry as a whole. very unfortunate, And I do hope you respond to this jim because while I had my hesitations and doubts about your kits I've grown to love your company and products as I've been assembling my colonial! It's hands down one of the prettiest guns I've ever seen or handled personally! the stock geometry is superb in both form and function!!!

But I believe your going to run into this exact issue/opinion of individuals as blackpowderbill (and myself a little) more and more In The coming years. Your company is growing and with that you are helping to bring in people from outside of
black powder like me who for the first 15 years of being a sportsman and avid shooter never shot a black powder gun. These are individuals that may not see the significance of what you are doing as for years theyve been buying cnc billet lower receivers for $200-$250. Now many others and i are coming into this market/hobby with all of our preconceived notions of firearms and firearms pricing/quality from a veiwpoint that is entirely outside of the muzzleloader community/market and especially outside of the muzzleloader price point!!!

And I wonder jim how you and the other forum members here personally feel your flintlocks and muzzleloaders from all the other manufacturers stack up to the big names (only in terms of quality ) like Remington, ruger, winchester, cz, weatherby, etc.....i think all considered you are on par jim!!!(considering final fit and finish is left to a monkey like me) ha! Are there ML companies that any of you would consider synonymous with a modern firearm company in terms of quality to try and help me understand the teirs/levels of quality you guys refer to when talking about kiblers, pedersolis, traditions? I understand how this is an apples and oranges comparison but I don't have the first hand experience with most of these manufacturers to know why yall refer to them the way you do.

I guess my next question is will we ever see you at shot show jim? I'm from Kansas city home of GA precision (custom long range bolt guns and army/marine Corp sniper rifle reproductions) I know for a fact that in years past they produced less than you and were a smaller operation than you. And we still saw them at shot show every year. I know this was long winded and you probably don't want to delve into your long term intentions on a forum. I've just become a complete fan boy of muskets and longrifles over the last six months and am curious where you see your company going as well as the market as a whole in the coming years! There definitely seems to be a longrifle resurgence!

 

[¡Señor.Casualidad!]

Edit-
Maybe you don't have any intentions of marketing or selling your flintlocks outside of the muzzleloader community. Its proven that they will provide more than enough business for you! I just think it'd be very cool to see someone like you put his foot through the door at shot show! Maybe it'd be a bad thing and you'd become more busy than you want! it'd sure give all of us some real wait times to complain about!!!
Im also really curious how many of you jim included only shoot/own black powder guns? I assume most of you own more than one gun ranging from 16th all the way to 21st century?

 

[FlinterNick]

1st off let me state that I don't own a Kibler but I've read a lot of threads on how user friendly they are to assemble and finish.
Is it possible that with the popularity of the Kibler kits, that other kit makers will be inspired to follow suit with their kits to make them more user friendly for those less mechanically or skillfully inclined?
I've built several so called "kits" from other makers and they required a lot and I mean a lot of hours and hand work, where as the Kiblers sound so much easier.

if you’re referring to pecatonica, the rifle shoppe and track of the wolf… nope.

Most of your other manufactures use CNC equipment to cut their stocks, such as pedersoli, they use a combination of casting and machining.

There are also a lot of builders out there that refuse to work from kits, they compline their parts from barrel makers, lock makers and hardware suppliers.